Sad day, my clutch is going out. I contacted Dinan and they quoted me $1900 for their Stage II clutch. This is without installation.

Doesn't this price seem outrageous to you guys for a clutch, I know it is HIGH Performance but please!!? $1900:95

I contacted RennWerks and they quoted me $350 for a SACHS sport clutch and $450 for the install. They also told me if my flywheel needs to be replaced I should go with the UUC lightweight flywheel and complement it with an M5 clutch for another $400-$500. I already have a Dinan lightweight flywheel which I hope will not need to be replaced.

My questions are:

Is the SACHS sport clutch any good? Can it handle 350+HP?

Does anyone in the Bay Area know of any reputable BMW tuning shops?

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

:help

www.dynospotracing.com
they're in san jose, talk to Dick and tell him Aldo sent ya

Originally posted by BlkDinanM3
Sad day, my clutch is going out. I contacted Dinan and they quoted me $1900 for their Stage II clutch. This is without installation.

Doesn't this price seem outrageous to you guys for a clutch, I know it is HIGH Performance but please!!? $1900:95


"Outrageous" is an understatement!

I was in the same boat a year and a half ago, had a Dinan Stage II clutch package.

The Dinan unit happens to be nothing other than a (perhaps slightly modified) Sachs E34 M5 clutch. The Stage II is the sport clutch. So get another one from Bimmerforums. That's what I did. Cost me $350.

- Beau

Beau,

Thanks for the valuable information, I really appreciate it!

Originally posted by Beau
I was in the same boat a year and a half ago, had a Dinan Stage II clutch package.

The Dinan unit happens to be nothing other than a (perhaps slightly modified) Sachs E34 M5 clutch. The Stage II is the sport clutch. So get another one from Bimmerforums. That's what I did. Cost me $350.

- Beau

PM Paul E. I believe he has a sachs clutch that he's been happy with on his SCed M3.

my brother has the sachs sports clutch. Works perfectly fine, although it is a tad overpriced IMO.

Thanks guys I did some research on the SACHS Motorsport clutch and I'm pretty sure I'll be happy with it.

Rennwerks (shop) is totally back logged right now and I can't get my car serviced until the 19th.

For the meantime I'll be driving my white wannabe M3 328i. M3 kit, Dinan CF intake, stage II software, AA exhaust, Koni adjustables, and HR sport springs.

Today a G35s pulled up next to me (in the 328I) and blew me away! I always wanted to see how much my SC M3 would spank one of those cars. But it was me who got spanked in the 328. You win some you lose some.

In case I wasn't clear -

We (us Dinan clutch kit owners) possess flywheels that will only mate to E34 clutches. E36 clutches are out of the question unless you purchase an E36 flywheel.

So Paul E's clutch _won't_ work.

Sach's stuff is just OEM, the Sport version (for whatever model of BMW you have) has a stiffer pressure plate. An E34 M5 Sport is rather overkill for a Dinan blown M3. The regular clutch is more than adequate.

- Beau

I have the Dinan Stage I clutch is it similar to the Stage II (M5 E34)? What is the difference? I have no idea? Thanks!

Originally posted by Beau
In case I wasn't clear -

We (us Dinan clutch kit owners) possess flywheels that will only mate to E34 clutches. E36 clutches are out of the question unless you purchase an E36 flywheel.

So Paul E's clutch _won't_ work.

Sach's stuff is just OEM, the Sport version (for whatever model of BMW you have) has a stiffer pressure plate. An E34 M5 Sport is rather overkill for a Dinan blown M3. The regular clutch is more than adequate.

- Beau

Originally posted by Beau
In case I wasn't clear -

We (us Dinan clutch kit owners) possess flywheels that will only mate to E34 clutches. E36 clutches are out of the question unless you purchase an E36 flywheel.


??? isn't that somebody elses clutch/flywheel setup too? :confused:

The Stage II I had was the E34 M5 Sachs Sport. Stage I I assume (and so I've heard) is regular E34 M5 clutch.
- Beau

Originally posted by BlkDinanM3
I have the Dinan Stage I clutch is it similar to the Stage II (M5 E34)? What is the difference? I have no idea? Thanks!

I didn't say Dinan was the _only_ one who did this. Just that if you bought a Dinan package and need a replacement go with an E34 clutch.

That said the Dinan clutch was installed in my car back in '96. The other company 'innovated' this idea last year. First and last compliment I'll ever send Stevo's way... - Beau

Originally posted by themadhatter
??? isn't that somebody elses clutch/flywheel setup too? :confused:

M5 Clutch kit (OEM and complete) goes for $280.00 on Ebay... Also the UUC Stage 2 is around 500 (not 100% sure on that one)...

Install should be around 4 hours... 300-500... (75-125/hr)

Best Regards,

T.

Thanks for the tip on eBay.

He doesn't need the UUC Stage 2, he can just resurface the flywheel he has. - Beau

Originally posted by JazzM
M5 Clutch kit (OEM and complete) goes for $280.00 on Ebay... Also the UUC Stage 2 is around 500 (not 100% sure on that one)...

Install should be around 4 hours... 300-500... (75-125/hr)

Best Regards,

T.

Thanks guys!

BLKDinanM3: How many miles did you get out of your Stage 1 package. I had one installed on my non-S/C'd M3 two weeks ago.

I'm being fairly gentle with it, however, I do spend a lot of time in bumper to bumper traffic......just curious...

WytLytnyn,

I put 20,000 miles on it, I'm sure it would have lasted longer if I didn't beat on it as much. (like trying to chirp in third)

FWIW, my Stage II had approximately 40k miles on it. The disc had plenty of life left, it was victim of a failed throwout bearing.

Most of those miles weren't driven by me, so I can't say how it was used.

But consider an OEM M5 clutch on a car that weighs a few hundred lbs. less, has about ~25% less torque - overall, signifcant less load in day to day driving. If you treat it well it will probably last 100k. - Beau

>>Sad day, my clutch is going out. I contacted Dinan and they quoted me $1900 for their Stage II clutch. This is without installation<<

As expensive as that is, when I bought my supercharger, did you know it was the stage I which was $1900, with the stage II being like $2700 or something like that. Not only that, but the stage 1 doesnt even do a thing for clamp force; its only for the flywheel that they make you buy the whole clutch! that reaaaaalllllllllllllllly sucks. In addition, dont they claim the stage II gives only a 20% increase in clamp force over OE? Big Deal. The AA clutch with flywheel which is cheaper than the dinan stage II at least gives you a clamp force increase of around 56% !

Paul, your observations are not valid. It's not directly comparable in clamp force. I detailed what Dinan does here. They're not the same family of clutch.

That said they're both crummy deals riding off brand loyalty, IMO. - Beau

Have a look at Southbend Clutch... Talk to Eddie.

I just got a 6-puck dual-friction disc along with Sachs Sport 2400# plate (and TO bearing/tool of course) for $670 shipped.

The disc is kevlar plate side and a ceramic composite fly side.

I told him I needed fast-road/road-race capability with 400crankhp.

Most vendors charge more for the Sachs Sport plate alone!!!

I won't have it installedfor a few weeks...but...I will report when I do!

Mark in St. Louis

>>Paul, your observations are not valid<<

Hmmm. .. And what observations might those be? Ive made an awful lot of observations around here :) Is it the observation that AA clutch supports 56% clamp force than OE? European car had it measured at 2608 psi, vs oe which is about 1660 psi. Is it the observation that the stage I dinan clutch is only a lightweight flywheel on an OE clamp force clutch? IF thats wrong, then it comes right from Dinan's literature... Or was it the stage II giving 20% more clamp force than OE... Frankly, thats the only one I cannot account for at the moment.

Wow, I'm learning a lot from you guys.

I took Aldo's advice and I brought my car to DynoSpotRacing in San Jose. They took out the worn Dinan clutch and will replace it "today" with an M5 clutch ($400), they also stated that the flywheel is fine it just needs to be resurfaced. Hopefully I get my car back by end of day today!

Thanks for all the advice!

Once again, Dinan uses an E34 M5 clutch. Hence comparing a 'Dinan' clutch to the OEM or the AA E36 clutch in terms of clamp pressure is not valid - unless it can be confirmed the clamp pressure of these clutches are identical (highly doubtful), disc is of the exact same area (highly doubtful) and similar material.

Dinan is not a company that tends to be up front on their technology - I think that is pretty well understood. In their literature or otherwise.

- Beau

Originally posted by paul e
>>Paul, your observations are not valid<<
Or was it the stage II giving 20% more clamp force than OE... Frankly, thats the only one I cannot account for at the moment.

BlkDinanM3,

Good for you. Another point to keep in mind for the future - UUC sells a flywheel which functions the same as the Dinan one for about $500. So if you like this clutch and happen to damage your flywheel you can keep truckin' on a budget. - Beau

>>Once again, Dinan uses an E34 M5 clutch. Hence comparing a 'Dinan' clutch to the OEM or the AA E36 clutch in terms of clamp pressure is not valid - unless it can be confirmed the clamp pressure of these clutches are identical (highly doubtful), disc is of the exact same area (highly doubtful) and similar material. <<

I guess I fail to see why we cant hold Dinan to their word. They say in their copy for their E36 M3 application that their stage II clutch for over 2 grand increases clamp force over OE by just 20%. Since this is aimed at the e36 m3, the copy claim would have me assume that since oe clam force is 1669 psi, then their clutch provides a clamp force of about 2000 psi. The AA clutch has a clamp force of about 2600 psi. On that basis I made my statements. If its an 'invalid' comparison, then we can thank dinan for making 'invalid' claims in their copy!

Umm... you fail to see? I've already as much as proved otherwise by pulling the damn thing from my car! Please save the clamp pressure claims. Even if they're true, it is this + disc area + disc material that determine clutch performance. Do you really think the M5 clutch is identical in performance to the stock M3 clutch? And that an M5 Sport has 20% extra holding capability over a stock M3 clutch?

Geesh. Considering how you've been treated by these guys over that exhaust fiasco I'm surprised you "fail to see why we cant hold Dinan to their word". So if you're thinking "gee, why would they underrate the clutches they sell?" Here's some reasons I can think of

1) Reasons to use E34 clutch - can go with a lightweight fly while retaining damping in this area with sprung hub. Cheap, reliable, and ready made by an OEM supplier for BMWs.

2) Stage 1 kit is touted as a lightweight flywheel solution only.

3) Stage 2 kit provides extra performance very much recommended for their supercharger kit, for a nominal fee (likely inline with the 400% or so markup on this thing). In truth Stage 1 is more than adequate, but Stage 2 makes for a stiffer pedal, feeding the perception of the enthusiast. Because in perception Stage 1 is stock-like. This ensures these are coupled with supercharger sales.

4) Both clutches are marketed and priced as such that Stage 2 looks like a bargain compared to a Stage 1. And if the Stage 1 didn't exist Stage 2 would seem that much more unreasonable and would have to be set at a lower price point. In truth Dinan doesn't intend to sell many Stage 1s. There's probably an actual marketing term for this but that's not my thing.

Get my drift?

Rip Offs.

>>Do you really think the M5 clutch is identical in performance to the stock M3 clutch<<

Hey.. what the F are you squalking at ME for. IM not the one who made the damn claims!!!!!!!!!!! Its not what I think.. Of course I dont think that. Like I said... its DINAN's stupid claim; not mine.

>>Stage 2 looks like a bargain compared to a Stage 1.<<

Lets not forget that until fairly recently you had to pay a whopping $2700 for the stage II. Which THEY CLAIM only provides a 20% clamp improvement over the OE application FOR WHICH ITS INTENDED

>>why would they underrate the clutches they sell?" <<>

The reasons you give tht they may be underrating their clutches imply that most buyers know that its an E34 clutch being used, which I very much doubt. Most people go by their literature. I know that I know far more about these products than the average jo blo who buys this stuff, and honestly, aside from the ridiculous price, that 20% claim would have steered me far away, in light of what the competition offers and is proven.

Paul,

I see, you're taking the side of the ignorant consumer reading ad copy, rather than someone who reads this forum and cares to understand the facts. Not particularly obvious in the first post you made. Reread and see for yourself. The rest is rather like trolling. - Beau

Beau, I dont know why its so hard to understand that if a tuner makes a claim, I like to hold them to it. The customer shouldnt have to do research just to prove the veracity of the tuner. Of course its buyer beware, but Im the last one willing to let Dinan off the hook for unsubstantiated claims. I dont think its a matter of an 'ignorant' consumer.... I think the tuners should tell the truth. Wow, I know... What a Novel Concept. Whats your defense: that the tuner is justified because the consumer didnt catch him?

I'm not arguing that. Like I said, reread your first post. I'm done here.

Paul, I just read your "argument"... I side with Beau... you should reread...

From MY understanding, he's not saying that YOU'RE wrong... he's saying that Dinan is probably making claims which _YOU_ as a _knowledgable consumer_ shouldn't expect to be true. And that you're comparing apples to oranges by not knowing the facts of either kit.

If you recall, when we did the math for clamping force, we assumed that the clutch is the same. You switch to a different clutch with the same clamp force and now you're not holding the same amounts of power. Thus like Beau said, area, material and the like matter in addition to the clamping force.

Clear as mud?

Boris

whatever. i didnt even know dinan used an m5 clutch. when i was sourcing clutches a year ago before I bought the sachs sport which is now torn apart, all I knew then was that dinan claimed but a 20% increase for their M3 upgrade clutch. Period. I figured no vendor would purposely underrate their product, and assuming they were talking about a 20% increase in clamp force AS COMPARED TO THE APP IT WAS TO BE USED ON, I dismissed it out of hand.

I got my car back!!! Running like new again, clutch is no longer stiff as rock, feels like new again! :redspot