Or is there any real difference? I'm looking for a track car and finding decent E30 325is's tough to come by. So I'm opening up the search to early E36's. There seems to be a lot of 325i's available out there, but fewer 325is's. I think the 2 door versions look better. But that's a minor point. Once you're out on the track, are they pretty much the same? Or is one better than the other? Thanks.

If you are planning on upgrading the suspension I wouldn't think there would be a difference.

Yeah. Same engine.

"is" is suspension, air dam, and I think some interior, maybe seats...

So if you plan to add a suspension, the 325i would be the better buy.

Thanks guys. I wasn't planning on adding any new suspension just yet. Well, maybe reinforce the rear trailing arm bushing area, etc. But drive it pretty stock at driver schools for another season or two before starting to race, at which point I'd need to upgrade the suspension. Given that I'd drive it stock for a while, if the is has those seats with the better side bolsters, that would help. But I thought there was a sport package for the i, maybe with an LSD, sport seats and suspension? Any other differences between the i and is? I'm having trouble finding these details. Thanks.

If you are strictly considering E36 325i and 325is, there really is no difference at all. Both cars are almost exact in dimension, suspension geometry, etc.

Sedans (325i) tend to be marginally stiffer (hard B-pillar and, in some cases, fixed rear seats). But, I doubt that it is all noticable on the track. The pluses of the sedan don't really show up at the track as they do in the practicality of four doors and lower insurance rates.

I personally prefer the sedans. But if I were to find a good deal on an "is," I certainly wouldn't pass it up.

Hope this helps.


edit- Concerning the sports pacakge, the car comes with the LSD, bolstered sport seats, 15-in sport wheels, and a slightly stiffer and lower suspension. If possible, I would hold out for one with the sport package mainly because of the LSD. But you can always add a used on to a non-equipped car.

Drive Safely,
Raza

Thanks for the info, guys.

After reading the following thread on E36 subframe tears, welding, and reinforcements, I'm becoming quite hesitant to buy an E36:

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105667&highlight=weld

That's some very expensive work. Maybe I'd better stick with the idea of an E30 325is for the track. Although I'm having a tough time finding one to my liking. Not as easy as I had expected.

The 325is in 93 came with in some cases a 3.15lsd. So that might be a good reason if your tracking it. I know I was one of the lucky few with an LSD on a 325is. In 94 they stopped putting the LSD on the 325is.

The rear subfram issue is non-existant if the car has not been tracked hard. If you buy a street car, just do a good inspection. Then change the rear subframe bushings before tracking and you should have no problems. I have a 93 325iS race car that has been raced since 94 in SCCA SSC and ITS, all on stock rear subframe bushings. They just need to be inspected and changed when necessary.

All things being equal, the e36 rear suspension provides more grip than the e30, no question.

Mike
93 325iS
#41 ITS

Like Mike said, the E36's suspension is worlds better than the E30's. By far it has been the most balanced chassis that I've autocrossed and tracked.

While the issue still can surface on street-driven cars (lead foots on the street can put equally hard, if not harder, miles as a track driver), just make sure they are inspected and replaced as necessary.

Besides making sure the thermostat housing, water pump, RSM's, and RTAB's are dealt with, the E36 is super reliable- track and street.

Drive Safely,
Raza

Originally posted by RUddin3
Besides making sure the thermostat housing, water pump, RSM's, and RTAB's are dealt with, the E36 is super reliable- track and street.

Yeah, thanks. Given that it's for a track car, I think I'd still want to weld up and reinforce under there. And that gets expensive. Now I'm trying to decide if I want to go E30 325is or E36 325is (or E36 325i with sport package) for the track car. Hmmm...

It sounds like the E36's are a better car for the track, but a bit more expensive to buy now (not really a problem), but much more expensive when you add in that welding. The E30 is cheaper, but not as good for the track. Hmmmm...

JonW,

Since you are possibly looking to buy a 325is... I have a 1993 325is for sale- I bought the car in April 2002 and put a lot of money into it making it a daily driver/track car including reinforcing some of the troublespots you have discussed. I enjoy the driving schools enough that I recently bought an E30 M3 as a dedicated track car and am selling my E36 325is. It is a turnkey car ready for the track or to drive to work. Below is a description of the car and I attached a picture of the car on track at Roebling last May with Chin Motorsports. Thanks to Speed2burn for the photo.

David Lamson


1993 325is set up as track car- this is what I have done since April 2002. All parts are new. Car has 188K miles. I bought it for $6K and put another $6K into it (mostly parts- not much labor cost.) I am asking $9K OBO. After I had the roll bar installed, I left the back seat out.


Performance
Jim Conforti chip
1997 M3 cat-back exhaust
Pham Air Research cold air intake (ECIS clone)

Suspension
Koni Sport SA dampers
Eibach Pro-Kit springs
OEM control arms (4/03)
OEM tie rods (4/03)
BMP aluminum rear shock mounts
'95 M3 offset control arm bushings (2/03)
spring pads
bump stops

Cooling system
metal-impellar water pump
aluminum theromostat housing
thermostat
radiator
fan
fan clutch
hydraulic belt tensioners
hoses
belts
anti-freeze flush and fill with BMW antifreeze

Brakes
Rebuilt calipers and carriers (4/03)
ATE Power Disc slotted rotors (4/03)
OEM brake hoses
emergency brake shoes
brake air ducts

Other
E46 M3 short shift kit
Guibo flex disc
Autopower roll bar
Bosch 140 amp alternator (1/03)
exhaust brackets and hangers
Redline differential fluid
Redline transmission fluid
BMW synthetic motor oil (5W-30)
New transmission mounts
microfilter
SafeQuip 5-point harnesses (dated March '03)
Bosch spark plugs
washer fluid pump
3 sets of 15x7 wheels
1) Bottlecap
2) 328is
3) Type?
DeLan Trailer Hitch
Modulite wiring kit

The 325is in 93 came with in some cases a 3.15lsd. So that might be a good reason if your tracking it. I know I was one of the lucky few with an LSD on a 325is. In 94 they stopped putting the LSD on the 325is.
Hey Lance I just had a question, I have a 93 325is with the sport pkg, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have LSD. I haven't done any burnouts except in the rain and I think the inside tire always spins out. Just for sake is there another way I can find out for sure? Should I try the ol' jackin up the rear end and checkin to see if one wheel rolls one way and the other wheel rolls the oposite way?

I bought an E36 M3 a few months ago for track only use. I think the rear subframe issue isn't a big one. IStock says he has raced an E36 since '94 without the welding work and it hasn't been an issue...that's 10 years of racing.

Another thought on suspension...a quality suspension makes a big difference in these cars. Sure, you could run the stock stuff and upgrade in a year but I say why wait. You'll increase your fun factor immediately and you'll learn to drive the car the way you're going to race it. This argument could lead you down a slippery slope...engine mods, tranny, braking, etc., but I firmly believe that suspension should be the first improvement on a track car. Of course if your lean on cash, disregard what I just said.

I bought my 93 new, and as I recall the LSD was not in the sport package, it was in the winter package. It was billed as "traction control" in the jurasic era before ASC and other electronic "driver's aids" came along. If you find a 93 with heated seats, then it probably has a 3.15 LSD too. Otherwise, it's probably an open diff. I am thinking about swapping out my 3.15 open for a 3.23 LSD, but I kinda like the drifting/fishtailing capabilities of the open, and I only track once or twice a year.

sedans are better...true B-pillars and a stiffer chassis when compared to the coupe. I would defiantely go with a Sedan for racing, even though my racecar is a coupe body. On a sidenote, it is easier to get access to building your cage with a sedan, easier to mount devices inside the car (accusump, Halon system, etc...) behind the drivers seat area...

Subframe is not an issue for E36 M cars, BMW fixed this already with their release...if you get an e36, just reinforce the rear subframe area and your set (this is if you are seriously planning to make a racecar out of it...light track events, DE, autox won't likely need this done)! Do this when you do your rollcage, drop your rear subframe, put in hard bushings and new short gear diff while your at it!! There, all ready for years and years of track abuse :D :)

Hey Lance I just had a question, I have a 93 325is with the sport pkg, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have LSD. I haven't done any burnouts except in the rain and I think the inside tire always spins out. Just for sake is there another way I can find out for sure? Should I try the ol' jackin up the rear end and checkin to see if one wheel rolls one way and the other wheel rolls the oposite way?

Yea you could jack the car up and see if they both spin. I've also heard even if you do have a 325is from 1993 it was a factory option, so it didnt come on every car. Goodluck

After reading the following thread on E36 subframe tears, welding, and reinforcements, I'm becoming quite hesitant to buy an E36

Every car is going to have weak spots that will need to be monitored under hard use (tracking, racing, drags, hardcore autox). That's part of the game - doing the prep work necessary to find and fix problems before they become really serious. With any car that you track, you will need to keep on top of the suspension components (including bushings), the brake system, cooling system, drivetrain, fluids and normal maintenance, any wear items, nuts and bolts, etc., etc., etc. And, if you know the normal weak spots, you know where/what to check whenever you're prepping for an event.

So, IMHO, it's pretty much a moot point. If you decide to buy an E36, put "check/replace bushings" on your maintenance checklist. If you buy an E30 instead, I'm sure there are other items to put on your checklist. If you buy a Spec Miata, same thing. And so on, and so on...

Jim

I am thinking about swapping out my 3.15 open for a 3.23 LSD, but I kinda like the drifting/fishtailing capabilities of the open, and I only track once or twice a year.

If you think the car drifts without the LSD, then it's only going to be BETTER when you get one. Most cars are hard to get sideways sans LSD, but add and LSD and you can drift all you want. An LSD is considered a MUST for drifting.

Then sign me up! I think my car slides beautifully, so if an lsd is going to improve it and also put down more power sooner, I'm in.

Wow, guys. I'm surprised at the misinformation in this thread. The "is" merely indicates that the car is a coupe and has zero to do with suspension packages or anything else, unlike in the E30s where the "s" after the "i" actually meant something substantial. And sport packages and LSDs were independent of one another on non-M E36s. As has been stated, it's often part of a "cold weather" package including heated seats. I believe the LSD was also offered a la carte, however. As far as weight/geometry/balance/stiffness differences between the "i" and "is", I've heard that there are practically no signigicant differences, but take that with a grain of salt since it's heresay with no facts or numbers to back it up.

Tommy

If you think the car drifts without the LSD, then it's only going to be BETTER when you get one. Most cars are hard to get sideways sans LSD, but add and LSD and you can drift all you want. An LSD is considered a MUST for drifting.


Not for Takumi

:)

To: JonW Hey i just read the thread but i have a 1988 e30 325is with some mods. I have upgraded the suspension very little with springs and oem replacement shocks. I have a for sale thread in the vehicle classified section so just look for 88 325is for sale if ur still interested in buying a 325is. And it has the 4.10 LSD!

Wow, guys. I'm surprised at the misinformation in this thread. The "is" merely indicates that the car is a coupe and has zero to do with suspension packages or anything else, unlike in the E30s where the "s" after the "i" actually meant something substantial. And sport packages and LSDs were independent of one another on non-M E36s. As has been stated, it's often part of a "cold weather" package including heated seats. I believe the LSD was also offered a la carte, however. As far as weight/geometry/balance/stiffness differences between the "i" and "is", I've heard that there are practically no signigicant differences, but take that with a grain of salt since it's heresay with no facts or numbers to back it up.

Tommy

Tommy's got it guys. Suspension geometry, and all other options were the same between both cars.

The bodies are different however in more than two and four doors. Front fenders, hood, trunk lid, front and rear lights (except headlights) are all different. Also, the four-door car is taller. I think by about an inch or maybe up to two inches. LSD was still available as an option in 94, but you could not get LSD if you chose the then new ASC traction control. Personally, I feel the car is just fine without LSD. Not nearly as high on the "must-have" list for me as it seems to be for others. Suspension would be the very first thing that I would go for, followed by, brakes, then wheels and tires. After that the list gets a little fuzzier :)

Truthfully though, as far as beginning racing goes, there is no difference.

*edit* Aww...this is an old thread brought back from the dead. I hate it when I don't look...type first, ask questions later...sigh ;)

*edit* Aww...this is an old thread brought back from the dead. I hate it when I don't look...type first, ask questions later...sigh ;)

Yup. Holy "Thread back from the dead," Batman. :stickoutt

In case anyone is interested, I got myself a '93 325is. The info is in this post:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=206827

It's fun. :D

To: JonW Hey i just read the thread but i have a 1988 e30 325is with some mods. I have upgraded the suspension very little with springs and oem replacement shocks. I have a for sale thread in the vehicle classified section so just look for 88 325is for sale if ur still interested in buying a 325is. And it has the 4.10 LSD!
He's interested in an E36 325is, not an E30.

Steve