Blake, Tu, Spencer, and whoever else I know and those I don't :)

The snow's coming, well, theoretically it has been known to snow in Colorado at this time of year, well, back when I first moved here... Nevermind. A bunch of guys mentioned doing a track day at 2nd Creek but nothing has come of it, so I'm suggesting a date and let's see if we can do it. A week from today, October 28th, Tuesday at 10 AM is a starting point. Anyone in or can make a different time? Let's get out one last time so everyone try to make something happen.


Chuck

I might be able to make a track day in the next week or two...

Anybody planning on going out on Nov. 2 for Solo Trials?
I'll definitely be there then.

Where is Second Creek located?
How much does it cost?
How many hours would it be?

Man I would like to but on the days you guys choose I have class, 3 classes on tues/thurs so not a good day to skip:95 Maybe on a mon/weds?

I'm definetly down for a 2nd Creek Day.

I was supposed to head out there tommorrow, but everyone going with me bailed, so looks like I'll wait.

I'm mostly free on tues/thurs/fri anytime, and mon/wed afternoons. I would prefer tues/thurs though.

As far as cost/time,

The standard price is $60/half day (4-5hrs).

You can buy a 5 day pass for $240, which works out to $48/half day.

Or if you come with 5 people, you can buy a 5 day pass and split it up, making it $48/half day.

This is definetly the best deal you will find anywhere for track time.

How does everyone's fridays look?

I could even do this friday if anyone is down. My buddy with the Z can also go anytime because we work together, so that's atleast two. Spencer, do you have any idea how hard it would be to get on or do we need to give like a week's advance notice? That's why I was thinking next Tuesday.

Ok, I called 2nd Creek and it looks like they don't have anything going next Wednesday afternoon, so how does that sound to everyone?

Originally posted by 325bEater
I might be able to make a track day in the next week or two...

Anybody planning on going out on Nov. 2 for Solo Trials?
I'll definitely be there then.

I just checked the RMsolo.org website and it looks like they lowered the price to $55. I believe it used to be around $70 plus a $15 license fee.

So looks like I'll be doing this event.

Have you done the trial before? It looks like they use the whole track except for a cone box in the kamakaize. Any idea how much that slows you down? I'm trying to get an idea of how competitive I might be. Brauch in his Red 98 Supra ran a 77 second lap last event, winning the class. I've broken into the 79's on worn Kumho 712's, and will be on R-comps, so hopefully i'll be competitive, just depends on how much that cone box slows you down.

Chuck,

There is no wait time to get in. Just show up and drive. The key is make sure you call first and double check their message machine to make sure they have an open test/tune day.

I would prefer a tues/thurs/friday, but if wednesday afternoon works for everyone else, I can make that work.

Lets hear from everyone else, to see what works for them.

hahha yea weds afternnon and I'm there.:buttrock shit gotta get new brake pads though, hey Spencer you mention something bout performance friction pads. I forgot what model and where to get them.

Oh anyone going to the driving school on Sat? I wanna stay in Springs or Pueblo on friday night but that would suck if I went by myself. I was wondering if anyone else going wanna caravan down there and stay at the same Motel/Hotel?

Ya, the pad deal is at auto zone. They are Performance Friction Z-Rated pads, which are fine for light track duty, and street. Auto Zone gives a lifetime warrenty on them, so once you wear them out at the track, you can get a new set for free!! $120 for all 4.

Auto Zone doesn't stock these, so you should get them ordered ASAP from your local store.

Just got tech inspected for Sat, and everythings good to go, also got my pads ordered should be in on monday, so I should be ready again for Weds:buttrock

Hey guys,

I'm definitely down for a track day, but I have classes all wed. I can do it either thurs morn or friday. I don't know if that works for the rest of you though.

I just got a set of those pads from Auto-zone. They feel pretty similar to stock on the street, and we'll see how they do on the track. Almost no dust and NO squeel. :clap:

Only Thursdays work for me....as long as I have tires to drive on. I am also signing up for the Nov. 2 SCCA Solo Trials.

I can do Weds or Thurs, I think Spencer can do thursday, the only person that can't is Tu?

Originally posted by Spencer
I just checked the RMsolo.org website and it looks like they lowered the price to $55. I believe it used to be around $70 plus a $15 license fee.

So looks like I'll be doing this event.

Have you done the trial before? It looks like they use the whole track except for a cone box in the kamakaize. Any idea how much that slows you down? I'm trying to get an idea of how competitive I might be. Brauch in his Red 98 Supra ran a 77 second lap last event, winning the class. I've broken into the 79's on worn Kumho 712's, and will be on R-comps, so hopefully i'll be competitive, just depends on how much that cone box slows you down.



Yep, $55.
Timewise, I'm not really sure how much the cone box slows you down. They set it up so you're forced to enter the turn at the very inside- it blocks off the outside half of the entrance. In my car I was still able to take it almost flat out still, but it would be a totally different story for someone with a little power.

I'd probably be down for a thursday run.

Alright, while it's nearly impossible to coordinate everyone's schedule, the best compromise seems to be Wednesday afternoon, so I will be up there Wednesday afternoon at around 12:30 with one other person. So there's two for sure, anyone else that can please confirm on here that you can do 12:30 Wednesday.

Hey guys, would definately like to hit SCR this week. I instructed one of you at Pueblo Sat at the RMCBMWCCA school ('95 M3 BG/Cream interior/Lux package) I would like to do Wed afternoon. But I'm totally open this week and would be willing to go a couple days, even show a few folks the line. I know SCR pretty well. So why doesn't everyone post when they are going...I'll be there for sure Wed afternoon and again another time if others are willing to show up. I'm also participating in the Multicar Club event at SCR on Sat. Taking my SO.....Wow, cross your fingers for me....first ever track event for her! (BTW, what do you do when your girlfriend doesn't really know *jack* about cars? Off topic I suppose. Could take up the entire bf web site....ha!)

i think i can make it on wed. but i'm not sure yet. anyways i'll see you guys there if i made it. but i won't be able to drive my car because they kicked me out of the track for 6 months 2 weeks ago. make sure don't drift while the manager is around :bawl

They kicked you out for sliding around a turn? Man, that takes out all the fun.

Originally posted by ci_325
i think i can make it on wed. but i'm not sure yet. anyways i'll see you guys there if i made it. but i won't be able to drive my car because they kicked me out of the track for 6 months 2 weeks ago. make sure don't drift while the manager is around :bawl
damn thats rough...

I'll be there wednesday afternoon. I will hopefully be bring my buddy (anise) with his 328 if he can get off work.

My old neighbor got kicked out of 2nd Creek a couple times for drifting. I guess Bob (track manager) isn't too fond of it.

oooeemrlee,

What car do you drive?

I see you are from San Jose also. I moved out here from San Rafael (north bay) a couple years ago. Starting to miss the weather when it gets cold here.

Who else will be there for sure on wednesday?

BTW, has anyone called to see if they are having an open test/tune day on wednesday?

Yo Spenc,
I called and Wednesday is good, I have me and one other person in a Z for sure.

Sounds good.

Did you get the nitrous setup done on the Z? Hope it went well, I look forward to checking it out wednesday.

May be doing it tomorrow along with my new springs, some work stuff came up and he got the wrong directions, so hopefully we can get it done tomorrow.

I finally got some tires...I'll be there :-)

have fun guys.

I'll be at school taking a test. :behead:

Guys,

I called 2nd Creek, open for Test and Tune Wed and Thursday...Friday is closed for private testing. (Wonder who rented the track?). I'll be there Wed about noonish with my M3/4.

Good stuff!

I'm still in even though I just found out my front control arm bushings are a bit overdue to be changed.

I should be there around 12:30.

I'm in at 12:30 with my now jacked "jalopy" after putting in a GC coilover kit, back is great, front is fugged. I'll explain later.

So how many people do you guys got? You need 5 for the pass right, I want run but my shoulder has been killing me since sunday(Keeps snapping in and out of the socket). But since I'm the one who requested weds, I'll come down and buy the pass also so we can have five(I can always use it another time right?). If you guys already have five then I might not come down. Well anyways I think I'll give Chuck and Spencer a call to confirm things.

Originally posted by Elusive303
So how many people do you guys got? You need 5 for the pass right, I want run but my shoulder has been killing me since sunday(Keeps snapping in and out of the socket). But since I'm the one who requested weds, I'll come down and buy the pass also so we can have five(I can always use it another time right?). If you guys already have five then I might not come down. Well anyways I think I'll give Chuck and Spencer a call to confirm things.

Jason and I both already have 5 day passes, so dont count us in the 5 person discount pass.

You should try to make it out if possible.

There are a few people I told, but weren't sure if they could make it, so might have a few "unexpected" people there.

See you guys tommorrow.

Guys, I'm bringing 2 snowboards w/ bindings and 3 pairs of boots as well, so those of you who were interested can see them and buy them today if interested. Sorry Spencer, can't bring the motor lift :)

Ill see you guys there!

Hey all,

for those of you who missed it...we had a great day at SCR yesterday! We had 4 BMW's, a Z-Car and an S4. Joining our party yesterday at the track were two spec racers and three motorcyclists. When the spec racers were out, you DEFINATELY kept your eyes on the rear view mirror, as they ripped by all of us :eyes1:
Nobody bent anything, but we did burn up some tires/brakes! :cashwalle

Spence toasted an R1, Right rear...sort of trippy...we figured alignement or maybe he flat spotted it somehow as it wore through the cord and lost air! He was kickin' my ass around the track. Hey, maybe it was when he got WAY sideways following me into Spectator Hook :booty:

Tu was totally Jacked, it was his first time at second creek. He rode with several of us to learn the line, as did Chuck and his girlfriend. Chuck has a bunch of snowboards and boots for sale if anyone is interested. Chuck did a little sideways dance in The Boot that sobered him up a bit :eek:

Jeff's car was lookin' sweet and he was rockin' around the track.

I spun at Kamokazi :help but kept "both feet in in a spin" and got the car moving again before anyone could nail me from behind-no damage. I also cooked my rear pads and had to quit a little early...fasted lap was 1:21:79. Decent for stock suspension! Hotlap timer worked great...although it does tend to make you push a bit harder :devillook

Jason was ripping around in his S4 and he was digging his new Yoko A032R's so much he wore his front pads all-the-way to the backing plates on his P-Car Turbo brakes, lucky he brought street pads to get home!

I missed a ride in a Z-Car and never got to ride with Spence...DAMN. Anyone else have any highlights?

Overall, a great day....we've got to do this again soon! :clap:

Yeah, good writeup oooeemrlee

I had a blast at SCR yesterday and felt I did alright for it being my very first time. Sucks that Jason had to get a ride home from a tow truck tho.

All and all I had a great time and look forward to doing it again if the weather ever gets better

Hey that was a hoot:buttrock Had a great time, thanks fellas for showing me the line and giving me driving tips. I'll make sure to be better prepared next time with some better tires and brakes. It was fun trying to follow everyone around and getting all most run over by that formula whatever car that was out there. Forget about canyon runs, I can't wait for the nect track get together. And what happened to Jason? was he not able to get the brake pads off?

Yeah... his caliper piston seized.

Yeah, the track time was killer, everyone who still had brakes and tires left at the end of the day was getting faster :)
oooeemrlee, i have a question for you regarding your incredible brakes and upgrading mine. I'm thinking of either doing a big brake kit or a Euro M3 setup like you have. My question is, have you driven any bbk's and if so, how did they feel compared to your amazing set up? My cost will be a chunk of change either way because I'll have to get M3 spindles, knuckle, etc to fit my 328.

Originally posted by cquinton
Yeah, the track time was killer, everyone who still had brakes and tires left at the end of the day was getting faster :)
oooeemrlee, i have a question for you regarding your incredible brakes and upgrading mine. I'm thinking of either doing a big brake kit or a Euro M3 setup like you have. My question is, have you driven any bbk's and if so, how did they feel compared to your amazing set up? My cost will be a chunk of change either way because I'll have to get M3 spindles, knuckle, etc to fit my 328.
Hey man you missed out I just sold my 993TT BBK today for 650.00 :eek: would have been a lot easier since you are local.

Why'd you sell them? What were your thoughts on them?

Hey, guys

In a hurry...but I'll post a lower cost alturnative to a BBK and describe my set up in brief ... post more later.

Euro floating rotors front, gas slotted
Stock Rear, gas slotted
Pagid Blue ... make damn sure it's the RS-4-4 Compound NOT the RS 4-2-1.

I've put in a cooling kit too, but not absolutely necessary.

Then steel braided lines and high temp fluid

More later!

Hey Guys.

Had a great time last week. We will definetly have to plan on another track day before the end of the year. We can also try to do it on the weekends since they have no events scheduled during the winter. That might help get more people out.

We were a bit rough on the hardware though. :dunno I went thru my right rear R-Comp, not sure why but an inspection is in order.

Jason also had the caliper piston seize on him. Thank god I had AAA, free tow. :buttrock

I'm bummed I didnt get to ride with you steve. I really wanted to get a feel for those brakes and your line, always nice to see everyone's way thru the course. Next time. :boobies Will you be instructing at the Spring BMWCCA Driving School?

Everyone definetly did really well, especially since it was your first times!

Glad to know we finally have a group of BMW track junkies in the area. :clap:

Originally posted by Spencer
Glad to know we finally have a group of BMW track junkies in the area. :clap:

We're around, just can't get away from the office on weekdays.

Hey Spence and everyone,

Really bummed I didnt get to ride with you either Spence :az:

FYI everyone, next BMWCCA school is at Second Creek May 1st and 2nd!! Mark your calendars, it fills up quickly. You can get automated email announcements by going to rmcbmwcca.org and clicking on the Yahoo Group link. Sign up for email announcements to be informed of chapter events. Also search on Google Denver Open Track Events or something and you can see the upcoming car club events that are open to other members. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND SCHOOL FIRST, THEN OPEN TRACK EVENTS! SAFTEY IS KEY! Learn the safe way around first, then work on technique and gradually build your speed.

Back to brakes for a second. There are tons of different opinions on brakes. This set up has worked for me without braking the bank (ha!). Euro floating rotors, Steel braided lines, high temp fluid and Pagid Blue Compound RS-4-2 (NOT the RS-4-2-1 which everyone will try to sell you) Many guys prefer the Orange pads RS-4-4, especially the Porsche and Audi guys. All these pads are expensive. I've seen them at The Racers Group, Eurasian, Bav Auto and I think Larry at Champain Motors here in Denver sells them. I have not seem them discounted anywhere, if anyone has I would sure like to know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I like gas slotting the rotors. You need to be aware that these pads will probably rattle in the caliper over bumps on the street AND they will squeal. Further, without hard stops, material will build up on the rotor and eventually make if FEEL as though your may have warped your rotors. Three hard stops in a row from 70 or so usually cleans them off. These pads are really not designed for the street. But I've run them on the street...squealling gets old after awhile, and everyone thinks your driving a bus :) Alot of the Audi guys are running the RS-4-4 (Orange Compound) on the street. But from what I've heard from others running BMW's they prefer the consistency of the RS-4-2 Blue compound. The Oranges are a slightly higher heat range, the yellows, higher still (check the Pagid USA website for explaination of compounds and what racing series uses what pads). Audi's are heavier cars, and are more difficult to get cooling to the brakes because of the turbo plumbing, maybe thats why they prefer the Oranges :dunno Porsche guys use the Oranges. The Blue's seem much harder to find than the RS-4-2 compound, I don't know why.

Currently my front rotors are not slotted and I am running Hawk HT-10 pads. I'm using these pads on a recommendation from the Bimmerworld guys who run this pad in Speed World Challenge. It's a pretty darn good pad, seems to be wearing at about the same rate as the blues did, ultimate stopping power seems to be the same, but they are not quite as easy to modulate. Further, on the street, they don't work too well cold, which can be dangerous ! ! On the plus side on the street, they don't rattle, and don't seem to squeal as badly, although I'm not driving the M3 much on the street these days. Time will tell over Winter I guess.

The blues are very consistent, easy on rotors and I just feel like a can hit my apexes more accurately when braking hard. It's REALLY fun to have brakes you trust and can accurately hit the same spots time and again on the track, you feel like KING KONG. Suck those eyeballs out of your sockets! :buttrock

Perhaps we should move to a braking discussion in a different sig, but my 2 cents on BBK's: Many cars need them! Audi's are heavy cars and don't usually have as good a braking set up as M3's. BBK's may or may not stop in a shorter distance, but what they do is allow increased consistency and more abuse before fading. Not much benefit on the street, but at the track for some cars it's a godsend. Oh, and some of them look WAY cool.

I simply do not experience fade with my set up. There is ALOT of heat generated. You must be very consciencious about cooling your brakes after a hard set of laps to avoid warping/cracking your rotors. At SCR I try to take two cool down laps without touching the brakes, and that usually does it. If you hear your brakes tinking or crackling when you come into the paddock...drive around and cool them off! If an oraganised event does not allow more than one cool down lap, cruise out the gate and drive a mile or two and come back in. People think I'm nuts, but I do this occasionally at SCR which is pretty hard on brakes.

Another tip: follow the manufacturers instructions EXACTLY for "bedding in the pads" when you install them. This is critical for pad life. Bleed your brakes before each event and change it completely once a year. Motul and ATE are what I've used. I bought some speed bleeders to make this easier. If you swap street and track pads, you HAVE to rebed pads each time you switch back to track pads...a bit of a hassle.

Last, with an essentially stock set up, I have lots of choices for pads and can convert the car to stock if I want to.

I am pretty hard on brakes, for those who are not as hard and want a set up that's easier to live with on the street, a couple of guys in the club are running EBC RED pads on the street and track and like them. I've not tried them. No squealing or dusting and they are quite a bit less expensive. EBC also has higher heat range pads than the Reds.

See, lots of opinions on brakes!

Oh, yea. If you're into the BBK thing, lots of folks like the StopTech setup. The Rogue Engineering set up seems cool with Stock Euro E46 M3 rotors and Brembo calipers, but I don't know anyone running them. With BBK's make sure your favorite pad is available and that you are prepared to use larger wheels to clear the bigger calipers. The P-Car brakes and some kits are cool because you can change pads without removing the caliper from the the carrier bracket....nice! Prestochango!

Last, for those converting their 325 or 328 to stock M3 brakes, do a search on this forum, but I think you need Spindles, Calipers, the Carrier bracket and bolts in addition to the Rotors from the M3. I don't think you need a new master cylinder, but I could be wrong here. These parts can be sourced from a wrecking yard or maybe this board. I would like to hear from anyone doing this swap, as my street car is a '93 325, it needs brakes and I might be interested in doing the swap too!

Let me know if you have different opinions or have other questions! Let's go back to the track!

I'm talking to Spencer now about possibly doing a bbk from him for my 328, if I don't do that I'll go the swapping parts to M3 route. BTW, the EBC Reds hold true to their reputation from HMS Motorsport ( I think ), they lasted ONE day at the track on both my car and my friend's 350Z. True, they don't put out much dust on the street, but on the track they're no different than anything else and don't last worth a damn. I wouldn't recommend these pads to anyone. On the street they feel exactly the same as stock, but bite a little better once they're warmed up pretty hard, other than that, go with Hawk's or the GreenStuff which has a higher initial bite and has actually been reported to outlast the redstuff on the track, maybe due to the higher initial bite or the compound or both.

Steve,

Good info on the brakes. I do agree that the stock M3 brakes are sufficient with a good pad choice.

I do feel that your brake system is something that is OK to go overboard with. There is definetly nothing wrong with having "too much." Especially for those like Chuck, who plan to go with forced induction. There aren't many feelings like the one when you get onto the brakes on a 100+mph straight and the pedal goes to the floor because your pads are toasted. :eek:

As far as the brake kits I'm selling, they are the 993 TT Calipers/Rotors w/ custom caliper adapters and hats. I have 5 kits from Prospeedmotorsport, when they were clearing their inventory. I also have the CAD drawings, so I may be producing more in the future if there is sufficient interest.

I'm also looking into a rear kit similar to the Rouge/ECIS. Basically a Boxster S/996 Caliper with rear E46 M3 rotors. I may also produce these..... again if the interest is there. This should keep the f/r bias about the same, and compliment the front kit quite well.

Originally posted by oooeemrlee

Last, for those converting their 325 or 328 to stock M3 brakes, do a search on this forum, but I think you need Spindles, Calipers, the Carrier bracket and bolts in addition to the Rotors from the M3. I don't think you need a new master cylinder, but I could be wrong here. These parts can be sourced from a wrecking yard or maybe this board. I would like to hear from anyone doing this swap, as my street car is a '93 325, it needs brakes and I might be interested in doing the swap too!

Let me know if you have different opinions or have other questions! Let's go back to the track!

If you are interested, I have the following from a 98 M3,

- Steering Knuckle/Spindle w/ wheel bearing & hub
- Carrier Brackets
- Calipers
- Lines
- Rotors (most likely)

Hey Spencer, how much will one of those 993 setups of yours cost?

Originally posted by Spencer
If you are interested, I have the following from a 98 M3,

- Steering Knuckle/Spindle w/ wheel bearing & hub
- Carrier Brackets
- Calipers
- Lines
- Rotors (most likely)

How much Spencer?

Jeff,

I haven't finalized the pricing on these kits yet because I am having a brake line issue that I am trying to figure out with the supplier. But from my estimates, once I have all the required machining done, the kits should come out anywhere in the $1499-1749 price range. This is a good price considering that the kit is basically a copy of the Movit Kit which costs anywhere from $3100-3300 depending on retailer.

Seth,

I really don't have a price on the OEM M3 setup. It will be more than most of the M3 setups you see since I am selling the spindles, bearings and hubs in the kit also. Maybe in the $500 range, but I'll have to look into the market.

Great track day. I had to be towed home at the end of the day though, my caliper pistons seized and it was getting too dark to try to fix it. Also had some dust boots disintegrate so I'll probably have to rebuild the caliper. Hopefully I can get this done on Thursday and be back up and running. I didn't really get to ride with anyone, but since I had a late start I wanted all the track time I could get. Hopefully we can set up another day, I'm glad we finally got a group of track people together. BIG thanks to Spencer for waiting with me at the track for the tow truck to arrive :clap:. And you're right, its definitely ok to go overboard with brakes. You were there last year when my brakes got so hot that I had no stopping power at the end of the back straight at SCR. It felt like my heart stopped for 10 seconds, good thing the gravel/dirt slowed me down off the track, no damage to the car. "There aren't many feelings like the one when you get onto the brakes on a 100+mph straight and the pedal goes to the floor because your pads are toasted. " You're damn right.

Steve,
Great write-ups! What you said about brakes on Audis is pretty much correct. Although I just upgraded to Porsche 993TT rotors under my stock front calipers and I had no fade at all at Spring Mountain motorsports park. I couldn't come to a conclusion at Second Creek since I had no pads.... Most people do upgrade to stoptech front brakes, or something similar. For the S4, even if you only occasionally track the car, its worth it to upgrade to the big caliper since pads for the stock caliper can reach prices in the $400 range, and pad selection is limited. IMO, the stock rotors is the weak point in the system, I'm sticking with stock calipers for now. You were telling me I should try out Pagid Blues next time I'm at the track. I'm looking for a no-compromise race only pad, since I swap the front pads for track duty. But I would like something I could at least drive to the track with...I don't want to go through that caliper fiasco at the track again, I'll deal with it at home from now on (good thing SCR is so close!). The pad also has to have a really high heat range since pads get cooked easliy with the heavy S4. I've had the rotors glowing from running in the canyons at night. Do the Blues seem right for me? Thanks

Jason,

Audi guys swear by the Oranges :buttrock

Compound is RS-4-4

Here is a description I got from somewhere in cyberspace:



This compound has a very good fade resistance and a higher average friction value than the RS 4-2. It is rotor friendly with a predictable, non-aggressive friction behavior (stable torque). Fading resistance up to 560°C (1.050°F). It is a very good rear compound for Touring Car applications in combination with RS 14 front pads. It’s main application is Porsche 911 racing. It is used on either Short Track or Long Distance; also for front and rear axles. It is also used on BMW Showroom Stock, all other Touring-Cars and Single- Seater up to F3.

A few more thoughts...

NOTHING is cooler than having a Porsche caliper on your car. OK, I said it. You did notice the complete look of envy on my face as you attempted the quicky pad change didn't you? ;)

Spence, Dude! how do you get all this cool stuff!

Jason, talk with Larry at Champagne Motors about S4 brake tips. He's a good guy; on Broadway about a mile north of Hampden. Tracks his car frequently and has done MTM turbo mods to customer's cars (not always with reliable results). His number is 303-761-7000.

Also, I think a good metaphor of "the margin of safety" with regards to brakes is "headroom". You know, like an audio amplifier just before it starts to "clip" and muffle the music when you turn it up too loud. Turn it up much too loud, and the sucker gets damaged or plain shuts down. I think Spence will agree, if you have a good set up with steel braided lines and good fluid, you should be able to fEEl when the brakes are beginning to fade and/or get that mushy feeling and then back off before disaster strikes. Cool down laps are key for me, but burning wheel cylinder boots and all, maybe there is a cooling kit for your car. The Audiworld site is probably the ticket, or ask Larry.

So with brakes, there is NO question, the more headroom the better!!

Good info in the EBC Reds....thanks.

Oh and Jason, I've gone off the track with failing brakes before too...and I hope to never ever have that feeling again! It's one of the reasons I installed my cooling kit on my car...YO FEAR! :chix