I own a 96 M3 and have a blast driving it, however I find myself babying the car and not sure if I want to track the car yet or not. Was considering selling the car and buying an E30 model either M3 or 325e for street/track/autocross. Never driven and E30 of any kind and don't know if I will be completely disappointed with the lack of power in the E30.

With that I ask, if you had a to decide between the E30 and E36 for street/track use and the ability to perform your own work on the car which would you prefer? :dunno

IMHO the e30 M3 is the only "true" race car out of the M3 line. It is so much fun to drive and can be VERY tail happy.

I would definatlly drive one before you make your decision.

Sure, the E30 M3 and E30 325is are way down on power compared to an E36 M3. But they DO make up for it in FEEL. People who go from an E30 to an E36 complain mostly of the lack of feel that the E36 has in comparison. The reverse is also true--those who go from an E36 to an E30 fell like they're driving something with go-cart reflexes.

So you want to sell the E36 M3 for a cheaper track rat? OK, if you want, but the E36 M3 perfectly capable of smoking most E30s on the street AND track while being plenty comfortable for the daily grind. No need to baby the E36 M3. If you mean you like to keep it clean, that still doesn't mean you can't drive the wheels off of it. If you think you have to drive the E36 carefully/slowly, why?

I would definitely either test drive or ride in an E30 M3 before you decide to jump ship. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my E30 M3, and I feel like I'd be losing a good friend if I had to sell it. But the E36 M3 is so much faster, more comfortable, and even handles as well on a stock suspension. Even for track duty, stock for stock comparison, an E36 M3 will beat any E30 M3.

Seriously, I LOVE the E30, but the E36 is just better technology.

don't get me wrong, I drive the hell out of my M3 but I was reserved about taking it to the track for the sake of breaking expensive parts. Also the car seems to drift sometimes when driving at high speeds. not sure if its wind or independent susp. and I'm not used to it. I've owned performance mustangs in the past and never had the drift problem.

Ever since I'ver gotten my M3 and starting reading all the mags around I've slowly started to like the looks of the E30 m3. at first I thought of it as repulsive, but then after reading the history and the huge following of the car I began to faal in love with the e30!

Well since I have had numerous E30 M3 cars, and still have two, one full race, runs D mod/GT2, one restoration prroject...AND I also have an E36M3 and have driven both on the track...and raced the E30...

The E36 can be made to "feel" just as good as the E30 car. For a street/track car...E36 no contest. You can buy an TON of stuff for the E36 cars. And they are way cheaper to fix if you do bend/break anything...try getting cost on an E30 M3 body panel...ouch...I have my E36 set up for street and occasional track use it is the best street car I have ever had. And it is fast as piss stock, a few mods and you have 275hp...

Go to a club race, or a DE...you see A TON of E36 cars, a few years ago a ton of E30 cars...not anymore. The parts for the E30 cars are getting harder to find and people just do not make the aftermarket stuff for them like they do for the E36 cars. Here is an example...I had to custom fabricate an aluminum radiator for my race car...My E36 radiator bit the dust last week..Ordered an fluidyne for it, here in less than a week. Blow a motor in an E36 you can get another one for under 3-4k if you look. Blow the E30 get ready...ain't cheap...

The description you mentioned about the handling means you have several things going on.
1. more than likely your Rear trailing arm bushings are toast...replace them with 96-99m3 bushings and get the Ground Control rear trailing arm bushing reinforcers.
2. You probably have wore out shocks, and more than likely upper shock mounts getting week or going bad.

To make your car feel right put some Koni SA shocks on it with new bushings and upper mounts (use Ground control supper nice)
Springs if you can H&R OE sports give great everyday ride and are slightly lower, I love mine.

If you track the E36 car absolutly 150%%% get some UUC tranny mounts!! This will eliminate you accidently getting the wrong gear and Blowing the motor. Get the X brace for the front, and some sway bars..and new pads and roptor for the track

Then go drive the shit out of the thing and have a blast!!!

I love my E30 cars they rae great. But in the real world an E30 M3 is not a good everyday car, compared to an E36 M3.

GGray
BMW guy for life...:redspot

Originally posted by Srainey1
don't get me wrong, I drive the hell out of my M3 but I was reserved about taking it to the track for the sake of breaking expensive parts.
Maybe the E30 M3 isn't such a great choice then. E30 M3 parts cost a fortune. Body, mechanical, and especially engine parts are as expensive as (sometimes more expensive than) the E36 M3. Any E30 will be older and those high-strung S14's don't last forever without expensive maintenance. You're probably wrong to think it will cost less to track than the E36 M3.

Originally posted by Srainey1
Also the car seems to drift sometimes when driving at high speeds. not sure if its wind or independent susp. and I'm not used to it.
Again, the E30 M3 will not be any better. With it's short wheelbase, semi-trailing arm rear suspension, and lack of traction control, it's not hard to lose the rear of the car. And when an E30 snaps into oversteer it's pretty hard to catch compared to an E36. The E36 is generally more stable at high speeds with it's longer wheelbase and mutli-link rear suspension.

Emre

"but I was reserved about taking it to the track for the sake of breaking expensive parts."

Wow, if you are reserved about the costs involved in breaking something on an e36, then you for sure should not get a e30 M3. I drive an e30 M3 for track use only because I like the cars handling and looks. Stock vs. stock they are not as fast.... but not too many stock e30 M3's anymore. Learn to drive what you have now. e36 M3's are great cars!

Originally posted by Emre



Again, the E30 M3 will not be any better. With it's short wheelbase, semi-trailing arm rear suspension, and lack of traction control, it's not hard to lose the rear of the car.

Emre [/B]

Let's see.. this, with the deletion of some gussets, is the same suspension underneath the rear of the M coupe.
Short wheelbase makes for a more entertaining agile car.
This inferior chassis won more championships than the E36. I reckon you should delete thse from the argument against the E30. These are the reasons why I use an E30 as opposed to the E36.
m.

Unfortunatly, the E36 chassis has won more, at more MAJOR racing venus, USTCC, BMW Club racing, SCCA ,GTCC, BTCC, etc.. than the E30. The E30 has won more European Touring car championships, but lets face it Touring car in europe is diffrent today than 15 years ago. And the 320 E36 chassis has won a few races, basicly a E36 with an S14 motor.

Based on a cost per fun, the E36 is far better. I JUST built a race motor for my E30 M3 Dmod/GT2 car...I had to wait almost a year to get the custom camshafts from Germany I wanted...and they were not cheap. The parts for the E30 are High. If I did not already have a small fortune in my E30 race car I would build an E36 since they are much cheaper to race and track.

And for a multi use car street/track the E36 is the hands down winner...If you have to have an E30, use it for the track, drive a E36 daily, if you can afford two cars, and a truck, and trailer to pull the track car to and from the track you can have track car and a street car..

Like I said before GO to a BMW CCA driver Ed weekend, and a club race week end. You will see the large number of E36 cars 325,s, M3's etc...Having an E30 car now you are in the minority, normal comment is... man those things ar expensive to fix.


GGray
95 M3 with toys
91 M3 project car(making 100% stock)
88 M3 Dmod/GT2
87 535is turbo, 400hp.

Originally posted by mmark.
Let's see.. this, with the deletion of some gussets, is the same suspension underneath the rear of the M coupe.
Short wheelbase makes for a more entertaining agile car.
This inferior chassis won more championships than the E36. I reckon you should delete thse from the argument against the E30. These are the reasons why I use an E30 as opposed to the E36.
Mark,

I think you mis-read the intention of my post: I'm not slamming the E30 at all. I certainly never claimed that the E30 chassis was "inferior" in any way.

Both my cars are E30s and I love how they handle. The short wheelbase, semi-trailing arms, etc. make for a car that's very easy to throttle steer. I don't find the E36 as entertaining (even thought they can be faster on larger tracks) and that's why I've stuck with an E30 for a track car.

But you have to admit that the E30 (and M Roadster/Coupe) are rather tail happy compared to the E36. E30s require the driver to be more sensitive to what the car is doing and are less forgiving of sloppy inputs. The original poster found he was having ahard time controlling the rear of his E36. My point was that the E30 M3 has a less stable rear than the E36 M3, so he's wrong to expect an improvement.

Emre

Emre, I don't take it as slamming, Just a different pov.
From my point of reference, I don't find them tailhappy.
I have 20 years of trying to make FWD Volkswagens tailhappy, plus I also track a 1300 pound 140Hp RWD Lotus 7 type kit car which makes the M3 handling Sublime. Tracking the 7 is like wrestling with a bear cub in a phone booth. I'm attracted to agility in a car. Time has marched on and E30 suspension is 20 yrs old so It won't be the revelation it was in it's heyday.
I believe it is a more communicative chassis than the E36(staggered revision)(haven't driven a 95).
I find that If My M3 is tailhappy when trying to power off a corner, then it is because I upset the balance of the car by taking an incorrect line, and the car is usually correct.:awink:

Definitely have to agree that if an E36 is too tail happy for someone, then they will not like the E30.
cheers.
m.

Originally posted by mmark.
I also track a 1300 pound 140Hp RWD Lotus 7 type kit car which makes the M3 handling Sublime. Tracking the 7 is like wrestling with a bear cub in a phone booth. I'm attracted to agility in a car.
That's so cool! What kind of 7 is it? Did you built it yourself? I've been dying to build a Lotus 7 clone, but have been hampered by not having a good place to take on such a project (no garage, no access to air tools, etc.). I was looking into the Birkin and Caterham line.

Originally posted by mmark.
I believe it is a more communicative chassis than the E36
No question.

Originally posted by mmark.
I find that If My M3 is tailhappy when trying to power off a corner, then it is because I upset the balance of the car by taking an incorrect line, and the car is usually correct.:awink:
Also very true! That's one of the things I love about the E30 for a track car: if you make a mistake, it lets you know immediately. Back when I still had the M42 in my 318is you would know if you made the tiniest error because you'd lose your momentum and it would take forever to build it back up. You're forced to maintain your momentum the whole way around a track...and that means you're forced to be smooth. That's why I think the E30 is such a great chassis to learn on. Guys with more powerful cars can get sloppy and rely on their right foot to make up for subtle errors.

Emre

what's in your 318 right now Emre, where's the M42 go?


mmark, you HAVE to post some pics and details on that lotus!

Originally posted by zenon
what's in your 318 right now Emre, where'd the M42 go?
I loved the M42. I've had the car since new, by the way, and always lovved the feel...and that rev-happy engine was part of the thrill. However, I had not one but TWO profile gasket failures and the engine overheated slightly each time. After two re-builds it wasn't really making good power. But I stuck with it because I loved the balance of that car on the track. But then the tranny started acting up: turns out the synchros and a couple of bearings were going bad.

The cost of re-building the tranny and the engine (again!) just didn't make sense. I figured it would be cheaper to just drop in an M20 drivetrain from an 88-91 325is. I knew that the handling would suffer, but I figured the extra power boost and tuning potential of the baby six would make up for it. I'm happy with the swap overall. That torquey M20 paired up with the 4:10LSD helps the car rocket out of corners. The trade-off is more braking before turn in, and a slight mid-corner understeer attitude (the car was perfectly neutral before). I figure I can dial in the suspension with the adjustable sways that I just ordered from Ireland Engineering to get the balance back to normal.

Emre

Emre.
It is a Birkin. Zetec powered with Kent cams,Quaife slipper diff on Kumho v700 Victoracers.
It was cheaper than the Cat but I didn't have the time to do my own build.
Every response to your input is immediate. It is an addictive lil' bast... :D
Sorry to hijack the thread.
m.

Originally posted by mmark.
It is a Birkin. Zetec powered with Kent cams,Quaife slipper diff on Kumho v700 Victoracers...It was cheaper than the Cat but I didn't have the time to do my own build.
Very cool. From what I've seen, the Birkin is an impressive machine. Looks simple to build, too. I was thinking of doing one with a moderately built up M10 running dual Weber DCOE's. I figured with cams, mild head work, carbs, and headers you could get the power up close to 200hp without sacrificing tractability or reliability.

Emre

where are those old parts Emre, still have them kicking around?

Originally posted by zenon
where are those old parts Emre, still have them kicking around?
Not really. I swapped the engine, tranny, driveshaft, cooling system, wiring harness, ECU, and exhaust system with 325is components. I left all the old parts with the mechanics who did the bulk of the work (the Herroux brothers in Chambly, just off the island of Montreal). They cut me a really good deal on the used parts plus all the labor for rebuilding the head and doing the dirty work in exchange for letting them keep all the old parts. Since both the M42 and the tranny needed major work, I considered it a fair trade...they wouldn't have done me any good.

Anyway, if you're interested in the parts, I can put you in touch with the Herroux brothers to see if they're still available.

Emre

Thanks for all the replies! Looks like I'll be hanging on to my E36 M3. Might have to find me an e30 to play with though :) I replaced the rear shocks and mounts with Bilsteins and the drift problem is alot better. the right rear shock mount was shot as well as the right rear shock.

As far as my car now goes it has 87k miles on it. when is too much mileage to track the car or should I run it until it blows and go find a new motor. By the way, the cheapest I have found a motor for is 5800 where have you seen them for under 4000?


Hate to sound like such a newbie but you don't know until you do!

dude, if your motor blows @ 87k miles tracking it you have completely neglected your car and beatthegodlivingpiss outta that thing.

and that's the end of that.:)

All I have read from these E-36 guys is how much faster, cheaper, etc. their cars are over the venerable E-30 M3. They may be a little faster, but they sold their soul to get there. Drive a well sorted E-30 M3, then drive a well sorted E-36 M3 and you will come to the conclusion the E-30 is more of a beast, requiring more talent to drive, but rewarding the driver with an unbelieveable feel for the road. This was a loosely disguised race car that BMW sold in order to put in on the track (which was THE most dominant road racer in history).

The S-14 was a hand-built engine. It's going to cost more to rebuild due to the complexity of the machine. The S-50/52 is just a normal production engine, made along side the rest of the I-6s in Germany. The real E-36 M-3 engine never made it to America. We got the "cheap" one with a single throttle body instead of the beautiful individual TBs you find on the S-38/M88/S-14s.

The E-36 M3s are a little faster around the track, but they aren't that much faster. Well sorted E-30s still do much better than the majority of the posts indicate.

If you want a car you can commute to work in, and drive to the track on the weekends, buy the E-36 M3. If you want an "edgy" purpose built production car, buy the E-30 M3. Be advised, it prefers being wound out on the track to being stuck in stop and go traffic.

:buttrock

i plan on getting an e30 m3. as far as being expensive to own, i just spent 4k+ on my old pos 325is, brakes all around, all new shocks, 4 tires, one control arm, and timing chain tensioner broke. i only know a couple of e30 m3 owners who encourage people to buy e30 m3s, the rest are snakes who want to keep their value up. im kidding. or am i?

Originally posted by waffle808
i only know a couple of e30 m3 owners who encourage people to buy e30 m3s, the rest are snakes who want to keep their value up. im kidding. or am i?

You should buy an E30-M3. You will not regret it. You will grin ear to ear every time you find a twisty road.

Be prepared for attention, both good and bad. . A lot of the import crowd will think it is an E30 with a body kit, since you do not see them everyday like the other BMW models. I get that question at least 2 times a month at gas stations. Mine is the only one in town vs at least 25 or so E36-M3s I have seen. Most people do not recognize the E36-M3, since they look very similar to other BMW models. The E30-M3 stands right out.

If you are willing to wait and look you can find very good cars at a resonable price. If you are seriously looking, drop me a line. My dyno turner has three of them, and is going to be selling two in the near future. He is in San Jose, CA.

The E30 is just as expensive or more to track then an E36 I think most of will agree on this. I like the feel of the e30 way more then the e36. I have owned an e36 and own an e46. Buy the E30 if you plan on doing some serious track events and use your e36 to drive to work and back. I know I will get hate mail but the e36 M looks so close to any other e36 chassis car. Be different!!!:clap:

Ty

http://www.europeanplates.com/cleanbmwrearmd.jpg

Originally posted by Srainey1
the car seems to drift sometimes when driving at high speeds. not sure if its wind or independent susp. and I'm not used to it. I've owned performance mustangs in the past and never had the drift problem.

Samiam, check your rear suspension bushings. specifically the rear trailing arm bushings and the rear shock mounts... these are both wear items. my friend w/ E36 was complaining about looseness in the rear end and it was the rear shock mounts...

as for which chassis is better for tracking/daily driving/etc... i think it's largely up to how the car is set up. how much it weighs, how stiff you make the suspension, how complaint the suspension and subframe bushings are, etc...

E30 is gonna have the edge in those areas since the E36 is more soft from the factory, and because it's a heavier, larger car right? i always hear the same arguments about E36 vs E46 -- in that case the argument is even more fishy since those two share very similar chassis/suspensions. (as for which is the best chassis design i gather they are all capable and are not going to limit you one way or the other.)

i don't really care for the subjective comparisons about 'feel' and how 'rewarding' a car's handling is. seems to me 'feel' is directly proportional to how light the car is and how stiff you want to make the suspension. 'rewarding' always seems to be another way to describe how sharp your skills have to be to handle the car (how fast transitions happen, etc.). in the case of either feel or reward i think you can make the car however you want it to be within a large range of options... just depends how much you want to strip the car down, how stiff you want to make the chassis/suspension, how predictable or sharp you want the chassis to be... anyone else agree?