Just got my new issue of European Car. They had a test on the CSL. Anyway, according to them it weighs 243 lbs less than the regular M3.

But get this; if you get air-conditioning with it (which is an option that adds 66 lbs), it's only weighs *177 lbs* less than the regular M3.

Conclusion: We can easily make our cars lighter and more powerful than the air-conditioned version of the CSL for far less money than it would take to buy one were it available in the US.

Yeah its not *that* much lighter, it is tuned better, although not a whole lot. many of the changes were in appearance (although 243 lbs is good amount) its the principal of the thing. I dont want a car with no A/C and seats that dont REALLY adjust. And those tires...

Yep. I can't do without A/C. But I personally like the seats though. Mine weigh 62 frigging lbs each. :mad:

Originally posted by twelve-o-three
Yeah its not *that* much lighter, it is tuned better, although not a whole lot. many of the changes were in appearance (although 243 lbs is good amount) its the principal of the thing. I dont want a car with no A/C and seats that dont REALLY adjust. And those tires...

True, its not a lot of weight, but the majority of it (as far as I know), is above the center of gravity. This helps to improve the handling dynamics of the car. Sure, you can replace the seats on your cars, and save close to 100 lbs, but if those seats are below the CG, then you are only pushing the CG the wrong way.

SteveMedina has managed to get his car down to 3000lbs last time I heard... he said it feels SOOO much better.

177 pounds is like taking a passenger out though. Think of how much slower your car feels on the butt dyno when someone is riding with you.

Wow. That thing must be stripped. I'll be down to 3200 as soon as my seats come in. I can't imagine the lengths I'd have to go through to get down to 3,000.

Originally posted by Kevlar
SteveMedina has managed to get his car down to 3000lbs last time I heard... he said it feels SOOO much better.

Well, I don't have an E46 but I can guess how one might do it.....

1. Lose the stock seats for some lighter ones like the carbon fiber Sparco Evo's with the aluminum brackets. Maybe even consider pulling the rear seats.

2. Lose the stock battery and replace it with a Hawker 15 lb (or 11lb one if it can produce the juice for the car) battery (I did thins in my E36 and it saved a butt ton of weight!!)

3. Start with a car that has no options. The sunroof and zenon headlights are examples of heavier options (zenons add 15lbs to the Mini Cooper for example, not sure on the E46 though but I would imagine it would be similar).

4. Lighter wheels. I don't know the exact weight of the E46 M3 wheels, either 18" or 19", but BMW is not really known for making light stock wheels, even for the M's.

5. Carbon fiber/composite hood (big weight savings here), trunk lid and fenders.

6. Clean out the trunk to include the various trim pieces and the M-Mobility kit.

7. Loose the stock exhaust. That thing weighs a ton!!

That is all I can think of for now but the things listed above are things that I have done or will do to lighten my E36 M3 for auto-x competition.

So can any of you E46 guys venture to guess what your weight savings would be for the above items mentioned?

Originally posted by M-Phibian
Just got my new issue of European Car. They had a test on the CSL. Anyway, according to them it weighs 243 lbs less than the regular M3.

But get this; if you get air-conditioning with it (which is an option that adds 66 lbs), it's only weighs *177 lbs* less than the regular M3.

Conclusion: We can easily make our cars lighter and more powerful than the air-conditioned version of the CSL for far less money than it would take to buy one were it available in the US.

Don't forget that the CSL is 243 lbs lighter than option free M3 which means no leather, no xenon, no SMGII etc.
If you consider that most of the M3s around have at least the bi-xenons, leather, electrical seats, HK and SMGII, they are another 90-100 lbs heavier so real world difference is approx. 340 lbs.
A/C is a must so you end up with 280 lbs difference which is very significant in my book.

As for making a regular M3 lighter than CSL, it is possible. Putting in race buckets (Recaro Pole Positions) will save you around 100 lbs. If you put 18" SSR GT3s or BBS RCs, you will save another 40-45 lbs. Eisenmann titan. exhaust is 35 lbs lighter so you end up very close to CSL in terms of weight. Wheels are at 4 corners, and front seats are very close to center of gravity of the car, so this will not upset the 50/50 weight balance of M3.

However, suspension tuning of the car as well as different steering ratio, plus bigger rotors in front and all the other small details make the CSL better driver's car.

On the other hand, I prefer to buy a regular M3 and put Recaro pole position race seats and BBS RC wheels to save approx. 150 lbs while still having bluetooth, bi-xenon, TV/monitor, functional steering wheel in the car and just pay less.

Another valid point is that if you are going to drive your CSL without those sticky cup tires, the car would tend to understeer way more than regular M3 since the chassis of the CSL is tuned for those tires. CSL has stiffer front springs and thicker front anti-roll bars than regular M3, which in return creates more understeer unless you use cup tires.

Originally posted by jmciver
Well, I don't have an E46 but I can guess how one might do it.....

2. Lose the stock battery and replace it with a Hawker 15 lb (or 11lb one if it can produce the juice for the car) battery (I did thins in my E36 and it saved a butt ton of weight!!)

3. Start with a car that has no options. The sunroof and zenon headlights are examples of heavier options (zenons add 15lbs to the Mini Cooper for example, not sure on the E46 though but I would imagine it would be similar).

4. Lighter wheels. I don't know the exact weight of the E46 M3 wheels, either 18" or 19", but BMW is not really known for making light stock wheels, even for the M's.

5. Carbon fiber/composite hood (big weight savings here), trunk lid and fenders.

6. Clean out the trunk to include the various trim pieces and the M-Mobility kit.

7. Loose the stock exhaust. That thing weighs a ton!!



Lighter battery is a good idea but if you change the battery and take the M-mobility kit, trunk mat and insulation out; put a lighter exhaust such as eisenmann titan. ( 35 lbs lighter), you will lightened the end of the car too much and will lose the 50/50 weight balance.

18" BBS RC wheels are 10-12 lbs lighter for each OEM wheel.
The hood is already alum. so no need for carbonfibre there.
CSL's composite trunk is only 3 lbs lighter so no need for that, too.

Just don't get the sunroof for a regular M3. Sunroof weights approx. 40-45 lbs more and you care it on the roof.

Seats weight 62 lbs each but also don't forget the rails and tilting mechanism which means another 20-25 lbs for each seat.

In my opinion, race buckets, lighter wheels and exhaust is enough for the diet.
Also SS x-pipe is approx. 10 lbs lighter than OEM middle pipe; and it is very close to center of the car so you won't upset the 50/50 weight balance of the car.

Originally posted by ///MDriver
177 pounds is like taking a passenger out though. Think of how much slower your car feels on the butt dyno when someone is riding with you.

Actually another passenger makes a big difference in the car.
Even if you don't feel it in normal driving, just have a head to head run against your friend's M3 driving with one extra passenger and see the difference in acceleration yourself.

Right, we agree. :confused:

Originally posted by Kevlar
SteveMedina has managed to get his car down to 3000lbs last time I heard... he said it feels SOOO much better.

3000 lbs is hard to achieve without taking too much parts out of the car. 3150 lbs is possible just with the racing buckets, wheels and exhaust on a lightly loaded M3 but for that extra 150 lbs, one should take out the rear seats, insulations, carpets and so on which result in too much stripping of the car, IMO.

Originally posted by pride355
......you will lightened the end of the car too much and will lose the 50/50 weight balance.
This is true, but you should be able to compensate for this with aftermarket suspension components (i.e. coilovers with different spring rates, adjustable shocks and swaybars) and a different alignment, to include corner balancing if you are really serious

Originally posted by jmciver
This is true, but you should be able to compensate for this with aftermarket suspension components (i.e. coilovers with different spring rates, adjustable shocks and swaybars) and a different alignment, to include corner balancing if you are really serious

You are adding engineering into the equation which in fact makes the CSL 30-35% more expensive than regular M3. :awink:

Furthermore, suspension components would be both on front and rear, so still you would end up with a heavier nose.
Eliminating the A/C in front would help to settle the balance of the car BUT we want the A/C, don't we :)

So in my opinion, exhaust saves enough weight from rear of the car.
I used to take out my spare wheel in the trunk on my E36 M3 EVO. After changing to 3,64 diff from factory 3,23 I just needed more weight on the rear wheels for better traction. Spare wheel weighted approx. 45 lbs.

Pride FYI, the seats weigh 62 lbs with all rails, mechanisms and sliders. That is, everything unbolted from the floor and left attached to the seat. I weighed mine the other night (I have power, leather, heated seats).

Also, the S/S X-pipe is 7 lbs lighter, but with the S/S S-pipe (3 lbs) it ends up being 10 lbs total. I have those too.

Originally posted by pride355
Seats weight 62 lbs each but also don't forget the rails and tilting mechanism which means another 20-25 lbs for each seat.

In my opinion, race buckets, lighter wheels and exhaust is enough for the diet.
Also SS x-pipe is approx. 10 lbs lighter than OEM middle pipe; and it is very close to center of the car so you won't upset the 50/50 weight balance of the car.

Maybe my home scale is off, but my SS x-pipe came in 9lbs lighter than the stock midpipe.

Originally posted by M-Phibian
.... Also, the S/S X-pipe is 7 lbs lighter, but with the S/S S-pipe (3 lbs) it ends up being 10 lbs total. I have those too.

Here are my wheel wgts:
Stock18" Front Contis= 49.5 lbs
Stock18" Rrear Contis= 53
---
BBS RC 18x8.5" w/ 245/40 S03= 43lbs
BBS RC 18x10" w/ 275/35 S03= 49
---
SSR Comps 18x9.5" w/ 265/35 Michelin PSC= 42lbs
---
So the track rubber is 37lbs lighter than stock and the BBS RC's with heavy S03's are 21 lbs lighter than stock. Of course, Kumho MX or ToyoS1 tires would be almost 2-4lbs lighter per tire.

I've had 2 corner wgts done with a half-tank of gas (on the BBS RC's) at 3346 lbs. My M3 specs: no sunroof, +bi-xenon, +power seats, +SMG. The corner weighting was done with an Eisenmann HP exhaust (only 12lbs lighter than stock), full GroundControl suspension and Bimmerworld backing plates & hose.

Track mods -
1. tools/mobility kit/trunk mats = -19lbs
2. rear seat delete = -48lbs
3. SSR Comps w/ PSCs = -16lbs (from BBS S03)

Changes since last corner wgt
1. AP front BBK = -16.5lbs
2. SS midpipe = -9lbs
3. Evo Pulleys = ? 1 lb
------
Hence i should be <b>~3236 lbs before </b> adding a lightwgt battery or seat replacement. So i could lose ~ 135 lbs (100 for the seats and 35 for the battery) which would approach 3102 lbs. I could also get a lighter muffer like Motek (to lose another 20lbs). FYI the last time SteveM posted iirc, he was at 3085lbs but maybe that was before his seats.

The only way to go lower is to get the Turner Carbon Fiber CSL-like front bumper (15lbs savings), a MAShaw CF hood (4 lbs savings, stock aluminum is already a light 12lbs), CF door panels (unknown wgt savings)... Beyond that, its ripping out all the carpet, insulation, AC, glove compartment, etc. Dan Law had <b>THE</b> definitive wgt reduction spreadsheet and details where all the wgt losses are. iirc, he was down to 2900 lbs. By comparison, PTG cars iirc are 2650 lbs before REWARDS wgt (they were running around 2800 at the end of the season).

BTW, I've also built a carpeted platform to cover the rear seat 'ditch' which weighs 10lbs and is fully removable/reversible when i need to carry passengers in the rear seat. The platform makes it easier to transport tires & can actually support 2 passengers albeit uncomfortably. The rear seats are the easiest way to temporarily lose 48 lbs.

Originally posted by biodan
Maybe my home scale is off, but my SS x-pipe came in 9lbs lighter than the stock midpipe.



Here are my wheel wgts:
Stock18" Front Contis= 49.5 lbs
Stock18" Rrear Contis= 53
---
BBS RC 18x8.5" w/ 245/40 S03= 43lbs
BBS RC 18x10" w/ 275/35 S03= 49
---
SSR Comps 18x9.5" w/ 265/35 Michelin PSC= 42lbs
---
So the track rubber is 37lbs lighter than stock and the BBS RC's with heavy S03's are 21 lbs lighter than stock. Of course, Kumho MX or ToyoS1 tires would be almost 2-4lbs lighter per tire.

I've had 2 corner wgts done with a half-tank of gas (on the BBS RC's) at 3346 lbs. My M3 specs: no sunroof, +bi-xenon, +power seats, +SMG. The corner weighting was done with an Eisenmann HP exhaust (only 12lbs lighter than stock), full GroundControl suspension and Bimmerworld backing plates & hose.

Track mods -
1. tools/mobility kit/trunk mats = -19lbs
2. rear seat delete = -48lbs
3. SSR Comps w/ PSCs = -16lbs (from BBS S03)

Changes since last corner wgt
1. AP front BBK = -16.5lbs
2. SS midpipe = -9lbs
3. Evo Pulleys = ? 1 lb
------
Hence i should be <b>~3236 lbs before </b> adding a lightwgt battery or seat replacement. So i could lose ~ 135 lbs (100 for the seats and 35 for the battery) which would approach 3102 lbs. I could also get a lighter muffer like Motek (to lose another 20lbs). FYI the last time SteveM posted iirc, he was at 3085lbs but maybe that was before his seats.

The only way to go lower is to get the Turner Carbon Fiber CSL-like front bumper (15lbs savings), a MAShaw CF hood (4 lbs savings, stock aluminum is already a light 12lbs), CF door panels (unknown wgt savings)... Beyond that, its ripping out all the carpet, insulation, AC, glove compartment, etc. Dan Law had <b>THE</b> definitive wgt reduction spreadsheet and details where all the wgt losses are. iirc, he was down to 2900 lbs. By comparison, PTG cars iirc are 2650 lbs before REWARDS wgt (they were running around 2800 at the end of the season).

BTW, I've also built a carpeted platform to cover the rear seat 'ditch' which weighs 10lbs and is fully removable/reversible when i need to carry passengers in the rear seat. The platform makes it easier to transport tires & can actually support 2 passengers albeit uncomfortably. The rear seats are the easiest way to temporarily lose 48 lbs.

Thank you for the detailed list :clap: :clap: :clap:

One thing though; Johann from www.m5board.com told wrote that his BBS RCs with 265 Pirelli C corsa weights just under 20 kg (44 lbs) and his stock 18" OEM wheels weight just over 26 kg (57 lbs) with the same tires.

This is what he had told me; he put them on a scale at a race track. You may check THIS THREAD (http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30459)
and THIS ONE (http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31998)

HERE (http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31532) is the thread on wheel weights we discussed on m5board.com

Originally posted by pride355
Furthermore, suspension components would be both on front and rear, so still you would end up with a heavier nose.

This is definitely true. However, I think if you go on an aggressive weight loss plan for the E46 M3 yet still want to maintain it streetable (i.e. not stripping the interior, etc.) you are going to have to lose the 50/50 weight distribution.

Personally, I think the 50/50 weight distribution is a bit over rated. My E36 M3, when it was in stock trim, also had 50/50 weight distribution. However, with everything I have done to the car which includes upgrated suspension and weight loss (see sig below) I know I don't have 50/50 in the car but it handles a whole lot better.

Although the 50/50 weight distribution makes for a balanced car, I think it is more designed for the "average" street driver. I find it hard to believe that moderately or even seriously tuned cars (engine, suspension, etc.) are able to maintain 50/50 weight distribution. But rather compensate for it by things like suspension adjustements and corner balancing, and driver experience to name a few.

Ok, with those wgts, then my scale is pretty accurate for the rear but not the front BBS RC S03 combo.

BBS RC 18*8,5 wheel is 18,7 lbs
BBS RC 18*10 wheel is 19,5 lbs

From the Bridgestone specs, the 245/40-18 tire is 28 lbs and the 275/35-18 tire is 30.

http://www.bridgestonetire.com/dpp/

Hence, calculated wgts are 46.7 lbs Front and 49.5 lbs Rear; my measured wgts were 43 and 49 lbs respectively.

I tend to believe my front wgt more than the Bridgestone spec--the 275/35 tire is waaay bigger than the 245/40 tire. Its hard to believe that Bridgestone rates the two tires only 2lbs off one another. Its either that or my 18x8.5 is a RCJ rather than plain RC (joke).

BTW, a BBS rep told me that the cast RC is only 10-15% weaker than the forged RCJ. But i've been told by others that its only because BBS cast wheels are special; most forged wheels have a vastly greater strength advantage over other cast wheels from plain brands.

Originally posted by pride355
HERE (http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31532) is the thread on wheel weights we discussed on m5board.com

Agreed. its unavoidable to lose the 50:50 wgt distribution on the diet-treated e46m3- but its not that severe. Whats more, for handling its not the front-rear balance thats important but the cross-wgt balance (LF-RR vs RF-LR).

On my car, corner-balancing w/ just the Eise exhaust, my front-rear wgt was 51:49 and cross-wgt was 50.1:49.9; in track trim, its only 52:48 Front-Rear. The cross-wgt probably hasn't changed much in track trim since i don't have the lightwgt battery yet which is the most asymmetric wgt loss (but which could be compensated by perch adjustment during another corner-wgt session).

Regarding compensation for loss of 50:50 balance (Front-Rear or cross-wgt), during my corner balancing the operator told me a story about a local e36m3 club racer. He'd run the season w/out corner balancing only to discover that his car was far from 50:50 much less cross-balanced. Basically, he'd adjusted his driving style.

Originally posted by jmciver
... However, I think if you go on an aggressive weight loss plan for the E46 M3 yet still want to maintain it streetable (i.e. not stripping the interior, etc.) you are going to have to lose the 50/50 weight distribution.

Personally, I think the 50/50 weight distribution is a bit over rated. ...

... compensate for it by things like suspension adjustements and corner balancing, and driver experience to name a few.

speaking of weight, how much more does a vert weigh than a coupe?

Originally posted by ///Mon3y
speaking of weight, how much more does a vert weigh than a coupe?

330-350 lbs more..

Originally posted by pride355
Don't forget that the CSL is 243 lbs lighter than option free M3 which means no leather, no xenon, no SMGII etc.
If you consider that most of the M3s around have at least the bi-xenons, leather, electrical seats, HK and SMGII, they are another 90-100 lbs heavier so real world difference is approx. 340 lbs.
A/C is a must so you end up with 280 lbs difference which is very significant in my book.


Actually the CSL only comes with SMG II. And for the record it only weighs a whopping 18 pounds.

The CSL is not simply a lighter M3 its has totally different engine managment and stability system. Its weight distribution is 50/50 try tearing stuff out of your M3 and maintain a 50/50 ratio, its simply is impossible.

Theres nothing you can do to a regular M3 to make it perform as good or better than the CSL.

This is within reason of course, the amount of money you will spend to transform your M3 to match the CSL will exceed the sticker on a CSL.

Brian

I guess this depends on your definition of performance. Because from what I've read thus far, the CSL doesn't perform all that well.

I feel confident that there are plenty of E46 M3's out there that will outperform a CSL in most, if not all, performance contests that have less than 10k in mods, which is far less then the extra you pay for the CSL.

Also, 50/50...52/48...they're essentially the same. The difference is so minute it's almost pointless to worry about.

The CSl just isn't that big of a deal for the money IMO.

Originally posted by dallasbboy
Actually the CSL only comes with SMG II. And for the record it only weighs a whopping 18 pounds.

The CSL is not simply a lighter M3 its has totally different engine managment and stability system. Its weight distribution is 50/50 try tearing stuff out of your M3 and maintain a 50/50 ratio, its simply is impossible.

Theres nothing you can do to a regular M3 to make it perform as good or better than the CSL.

This is within reason of course, the amount of money you will spend to transform your M3 to match the CSL will exceed the sticker on a CSL.

Brian

At 3153 lbs & 360 hp, the CSL has a power-2-wgt ratio of 8.76.

Its not hard to get a US-spec M3 down to 3100 lbs. With the Evosports pkg to be shown at SEMA this Nov4-7, one could get 314 rwhp which translates to 374 at the crank (the car dyno'd at 279 rwhp before mods, a 19% drivetrain loss). That would give a stripped M3 a better power-2-wgt ratio of 8.29.

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/archives/forum.php?postid=4020016&page=6

Consider cost, a low-option M3 is ~$52k which is $48k lower than the CSL.

So, add a BBK (5k), full GC suspension (4k), SSR Comps PSC's ($3k), Recaro PP seats ($1.2k), Bimmerworld brake duct cooling system ($500), & the Evo pkg which i'm guessing will be ~$10k (SS headers/cats $3k, SS-midpipe/Eise exhaust $1.5k, cams $2k, Evo airbox ~$1.5k ??, Evo software ~$1.5k ??) and we're under ~$26k in mods even if we include labor installation costs. Almost half the extra premium for the CSL.

Obviously the final Evo airbox & software costs are guesses, but these numbers would be comparable to Dinan/Gruppe M airboxes.

This configuration is arguably better than the CSL since it includes a BBK & brake duct cooling system. Further, the GC suspension would be better than the CSL suspension. Case in point, the CSL's adjustable rear LCA are not as well designed as many after-market LCA's. Finally, the CSL's suspension doesn't include coilovers; hence one cannot corner-wgt the car. To beat the dead horse again, 50:50 Front-rear balance is not as important as cross-wgt balance for handling. Handling of a GC-mod'd car would likely be better as a result of the ability to corner-wgt the car.

The only thing missing from a stripped & mod'd US-spec M3 is the CSL's modified DSC and SMG software. But DSC is usually off on the track. Details of the CSL's mod'd SMG software are unknown.

Bottom line- contrary to your naive belief that the CSL is the pinnacle, one could easily match if not <font color="880000"><b>EXCEED</b></font> the abilities of the CSL for almost half the CSL's premium.

Originally posted by dallasbboy
...
The CSL is not simply a lighter M3 its has totally different engine managment and stability system. Its weight distribution is 50/50 try tearing stuff out of your M3 and maintain a 50/50 ratio, its simply is impossible.

Theres nothing you can do to a regular M3 to make it perform as good or better than the CSL.

This is within reason of course, the amount of money you will spend to transform your M3 to match the CSL will exceed the sticker on a CSL.

Brian

Originally posted by biodan
At 3153 lbs & 360 hp, the CSL has a power-2-wgt ratio of 8.76.

Its not hard to get a US-spec M3 down to 3100 lbs. With the Evosports pkg to be shown at SEMA this Nov4-7, one could get 314 rwhp which translates to 374 at the crank (the car dyno'd at 279 rwhp before mods, a 19% drivetrain loss). That would give a stripped M3 a better power-2-wgt ratio of 8.29.

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/archives/forum.php?postid=4020016&page=6

Consider cost, a low-option M3 is ~$52k which is $48k lower than the CSL.

So, add a BBK (5k), full GC suspension (4k), SSR Comps PSC's ($3k), Recaro PP seats ($1.2k), Bimmerworld brake duct cooling system ($500), & the Evo pkg which i'm guessing will be ~$10k (SS headers/cats $3k, SS-midpipe/Eise exhaust $1.5k, cams $2k, Evo airbox ~$1.5k ??, Evo software ~$1.5k ??) and we're under ~$26k in mods even if we include labor installation costs. Almost half the extra premium for the CSL.

Obviously the final Evo airbox & software costs are guesses, but these numbers would be comparable to Dinan/Gruppe M airboxes.

This configuration is arguably better than the CSL since it includes a BBK & brake duct cooling system. Further, the GC suspension would be better than the CSL suspension. Case in point, the CSL's adjustable rear LCA are not as well designed as many after-market LCA's. Finally, the CSL's suspension doesn't include coilovers; hence one cannot corner-wgt the car. To beat the dead horse again, 50:50 Front-rear balance is not as important as cross-wgt balance for handling. Handling of a GC-mod'd car would likely be better as a result of the ability to corner-wgt the car.

The only thing missing from a stripped & mod'd US-spec M3 is the CSL's modified DSC and SMG software. But DSC is usually off on the track. Details of the CSL's mod'd SMG software are unknown.

Bottom line- contrary to your naive belief that the CSL is the pinnacle, one could easily match if not <font color="880000"><b>EXCEED</b></font> the abilities of the CSL for almost half the CSL's premium.

Being an engineer myself I've learned what exists on paper rarely or never manifests itself in reality.

Slapping on all kinds of mods from different vendors is not a guaranteed method of improving performance. All sorts of problems and issues will be encountered when changing so many things on your car. Its not as simple as putting them on and you're up and running.

The CSL has certain things which simply are not possible to replicate, like the M-Track system and BMW M tweaked engine.

Build your car, stripped, and fully bolted and run it on Nurburgring. With a time less than 7:50 I'll beleive you until then I won't.

Brian

In general, i'd agree with you about slapping on mods. However, Evo has dyno'd that particular performance packgage and their numbers are usually verifiable. Did you note that their posted dyno was #68?

As for the BBK & GC suspension, these are no-brainers as many people have installed them. Their performance abilities are not theoretical. Heck, even all the magazines have complained about the lack of serious brakes on the CSL.

I'm sure we'll see European M3's stripped and mod'd that will meet or beat the CSL times on the Ring soon enough.

BTW, this is my 3rd modified BMW. I've had complete systems cars- 2 from Dinan: one being a e30 Dinan Stroker w/ full Dinan suspension mods and an e36m3 Dinan Stg 2 SC but with Bilstein/H&R springs and RD sways so i'm no newbie when it comes to mods and their integration. Both the e36m3 & the current e46m3 were/are tracked. How many cars have you mod'd?

Originally posted by dallasbboy
Being an engineer myself I've learned what exists on paper rarely or never manifests itself in reality.

Slapping on all kinds of mods from different vendors is not a guaranteed method of improving performance. All sorts of problems and issues will be encountered when changing so many things on your car. Its not as simple as putting them on and you're up and running.

The CSL has certain things which simply are not possible to replicate, like the M-Track system and BMW M tweaked engine.

Build your car, stripped, and fully bolted and run it on Nurburgring. With a time less than 7:50 I'll beleive you until then I won't.

Brian

Originally posted by biodan
In general, i'd agree with you about slapping on mods. However, Evo has dyno'd that particular performance packgage and their numbers are usually verifiable. Did you note that their posted dyno was #68?

As for the BBK & GC suspension, these are no-brainers as many people have installed them. Their performance abilities are not theoretical. Heck, even all the magazines have complained about the lack of serious brakes on the CSL.

I'm sure we'll see European M3's stripped and mod'd that will meet or beat the CSL times on the Ring soon enough.

BTW, this is my 3rd modified BMW. I've had complete systems cars- 2 from Dinan: one being a e30 Dinan Stroker w/ full Dinan suspension mods and an e36m3 Dinan Stg 2 SC but with Bilstein/H&R springs and RD sways so i'm no newbie when it comes to mods and their integration. Both the e36m3 & the current e46m3 were/are tracked. How many cars have you mod'd?

Understood, but the point of my concern is that you are counting on this EVO sport power package which hasn't even made it to SEMA yet. I saw the dyno but I'm skeptical the finished product will give the same yields.

When I see what Oliver Nowack had to do to the S54 to make decent power I don't even think its worth the effort considering the cost.

I've only owned 2 BMWs (both modified) but have yet to touch the suspension on the M3 yet.

Brian

As a point of comparison, dougkm dyno'd his 01 e46m3 with Euro headers/cats, Eisenmann exhaust (iirc), Evo pulleys, stock software and 94 octane gas and got 302 rwhp SAE corrected (309 uncorrected). Not too far off from Evo's 314 rwhp on 91 octane. Its not unreasonable that cams, software and an Evo airbox would boost that 302 rwhp to 314.

Also, recall that its likely the CSL was dyno'd on gas w/ higher than the 91 octane Evo used.

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111190&highlight=dougkm

BTW, Evo claims to have dyno results showing the Supersprint headers to give more power than the Euro headers... tho i don't think they've been posted.

Originally posted by dallasbboy
Understood, but the point of my concern is that you are counting on this EVO sport power package which hasn't even made it to SEMA yet. I saw the dyno but I'm skeptical the finished product will give the same yields.

When I see what Oliver Nowack had to do to the S54 to make decent power I don't even think its worth the effort considering the cost.

I've only owned 2 BMWs (both modified) but have yet to touch the suspension on the M3 yet.

Brian

You also have to remember that with the CSL is a slightly different transmission and M-Differential and traction control system (as well as a computer without an AFM).

The new TCS will allow for around 15% of "ass out" before it tries to correct you. Also, the SMG shifts are faster. There's more in the electronics to the car done than a lot of people thing. And as some said, the engineering and money it took to bring CF roofs to the market alone is quite a feat.

-Prince

Originally posted by PrinceE30

The new TCS will allow for around 15% of "ass out" before it tries to correct you. Also, the SMG shifts are faster. There's more in the electronics to the car done than a lot of people thing. And as some said, the engineering and money it took to bring CF roofs to the market alone is quite a feat.

-Prince

Actually, SMGII on CSL is not faster. Upshifts are as fast as 0,080 sec (80 miliseconds) both on CSL and regular M3.
CSL has faster downshifts especially 3-2 and 2-1 gear but new SMGII software is also faster on downshifts which is upgraded from this month.

I think you guys are missing the point. 243lbs is a good bit of weight, but like you have noted, its nothing too special. The thing that makes the CSL so significant is the fact that the weight removed was taken from the right places. They lowered the M3's center of gravity by 4 inches. A 4 inch drop is huge when we're talking about the car's center of gravity. If you still don't think that it matters much, then pick up an issue of an automotive magazine that tested the CSL.
An e46 M3 can pull what? .88? .89 lateral g's? Thats pretty good, but every road test that I've seen has reported anywhere from 1.4 to 1.6 lateral g's. Given, it comes from the factory with very sticky tires, but I wouldnt doubt that it can still pull about 1.2g's with more weather-compatible tires.
The most amazing thing about the CSL, IMO, is that it remains a street car. It could be a great daily driver and it looks better than the regular M3 too. Kind of makes you wonder how many people are going to take one of the 2,000 models produced and apply that 1.5 lateral g's to the track.

Originally posted by pride355
Don't forget that the CSL is 243 lbs lighter than option free M3 which means no leather, no xenon, no SMGII etc.
If you consider that most of the M3s around have at least the bi-xenons, leather, electrical seats, HK and SMGII, they are another 90-100 lbs heavier so real world difference is approx. 340 lbs.
A/C is a must so you end up with 280 lbs difference which is very significant in my book.

As for making a regular M3 lighter than CSL, it is possible. Putting in race buckets (Recaro Pole Positions) will save you around 100 lbs. If you put 18" SSR GT3s or BBS RCs, you will save another 40-45 lbs. Eisenmann titan. exhaust is 35 lbs lighter so you end up very close to CSL in terms of weight. Wheels are at 4 corners, and front seats are very close to center of gravity of the car, so this will not upset the 50/50 weight balance of M3.

However, suspension tuning of the car as well as different steering ratio, plus bigger rotors in front and all the other small details make the CSL better driver's car.

On the other hand, I prefer to buy a regular M3 and put Recaro pole position race seats and BBS RC wheels to save approx. 150 lbs while still having bluetooth, bi-xenon, TV/monitor, functional steering wheel in the car and just pay less.

Another valid point is that if you are going to drive your CSL without those sticky cup tires, the car would tend to understeer way more than regular M3 since the chassis of the CSL is tuned for those tires. CSL has stiffer front springs and thicker front anti-roll bars than regular M3, which in return creates more understeer unless you use cup tires.

You can swap out the steering wheel controls on the CSL steering wheel.

The CSL however, does have alot of engineering behind it over the Stock M3.... not just dropping weight wherever you can.

Originally posted by Mpowered
You can swap out the steering wheel controls on the CSL steering wheel.

The CSL however, does have alot of engineering behind it over the Stock M3.... not just dropping weight wherever you can.

I just got done reading the euro car mag article and they brought up some very good point at what makes the car drive so well.

WHERE the weight is taken from. The CF roof (highest point on the car) has been cut drastically. The front bumper, the intake are both in front of the front axels. It's not so much how much was taken off, but where it was taken and how that afffects handling.

-Prince