Anybody see the latest Car and Driver review of Dinan's S2 upgrade to the E46 M3?

Salient points:

Cost: $18,000 on top of the M3 price.

Results:

0-60:
before: 4.5 to 4.8
after: 4.6

1/4 mile:
before: 13.1 to 13.6
after: 13.2

hp rating:
before: 333
after: 361 (mfg claimed)

Would someone explain to me how an increase of 28 hp results in virtually no acceleration change? Someone could say that if you take the slowest 'before' times, there is a slight improvement. But, Id prefer to use the concensus of 'before' times as reported by most of the mags, and those 0-60 times are usually around 4.6 to 4.7 seconds, so there is no difference here. Same with the 1/4 mile measurement.

I dont know bout you, but I wouldnt be real happy paying 18 grand and winding up with virtually no improvement in acceleration. Who would be ?!

Now, handling/suspension mods at least make a measureable improvement, boosting skidpad numbers from a stock .86g approx to .96g afterwards.

But, hey for $18 grand, thats one hellofa suspension upgrade!!!!!!

That car probably started out as one of the slower times before the mods.

It also depends where the extra hp is made after the mods. If Dinan only increased the peak hp and the rest of the powerband stayed pretty close to the same, then yeah you would not see too much improvement in acceleration. I guess if somehow they were able to make 28hp throughout the whole powerband, then you would expect a very nice improvement.

If I had an E46 M3, I probably wouldn't think much about mods for acceleration (geeeezzz... low 13's in the 1/4). 0.96g sounds like something I would like to have.

I love the Dinan parts on my E36 but after reading the test and review in Bimmer mag, I think the S2 is ridiculous. like Paul mentioned, 18K for nothing really. Bimmer did claim S2 4.4 and stock 4.8 (it was a 2001 6-speed) and the 1/4 and 13.2@108mph..

also Dinan S2 9.3 lbs per HP and STOCK 10.2 lbs per HP...

They did quote Steve Dinan to say he's following ol' Herbert Hartge and putting a M5 V8 in the M3, and also a Supercharged S54 soon enough... I say meh to Dinan, I used to be all about it but now, meh...

oh, oh! and 7K of that 18 was for the wheels, which score points for rarity, but you could get alotta wheel for 7K...

For shame

Yeah, Dinan really doesn't impress me with their bolt on stuff... I imagine no other manufacturers junk produces much more power... but Dinan always seems to think its allright to claim a hell of a lot more increase.

As for the skidpad increase... from .87 to .96 is a HUGE increase... that's astronomical!

I'd have to skip on the engine upgrades and just grab the suspension package... .96 is nothing to frown at. That's supercar territory.

Steve

hell yeah... .96g, that's awesome especially on street tires.

>>.96g, that's awesome especially on street tires.
<<

Yup.. I agree. Perhaps as an ala carte package alone, without the exhorbitant wheels and the not too effective engine mods, it might make more sense.

Yea, there it is...Stage II suspension on its own is 'only' $1600. Thats alot better, and seems very effective. Ill vouch for Dinan suspensions. Ive got their Stage I on my e36 m3, and its a huge improvement over stock, beside the fact that the stock struts wear out by 35k miles! I trust this one will last an awful lot longer.

"when Koni's were adjudged deficient in that respect, we (Dinan) turned to JRZ for help" - Bimmer Magzine

these tests were on 19x9 (f) 19x10 (r) and 275-30 and 285-30-19's on the rear...

>>19x9 (f) 19x10 (r) and 275-30 and 285-30-19's on the rear...
<<

And how much larger a contact patch do these deliver than stock? Id hate to think that of that .1g increase on the pad, 60% of it was due to more rubber

Originally posted by paul e
[BAnd how much larger a contact patch do these deliver than stock? Id hate to think that of that .1g increase on the pad, 60% of it was due to more rubber [/B]

Stock uses a 225/40/19 f and 255/35/19 r tire. The DINAN pkg uses a 275/30/19 f and 285/30/19 r tire.

I think that a 'good' part of the increase was due to rubber. 'Bimmer' seemed to think the some of it was the tires as well.

Dinan says "the 50mm increase at each front corner really dials out the understeer that is typical of the M3. There's also less understeer because we've narrowed the size difference between the front and rear tires of the stock car"

Factory is 30mm wider and Dinan's setup is only a 10mm difference...

A side note: these Dinan wheels weigh only 20lbs each

>>A side note: these Dinan wheels weigh only 20lbs each<<

Yea, thats nice for 19" rims. But one thing still gets me. The listing for the S2M3 on the Dinan site is for around $10K. Even if the wheels are added, I dont think they come to $8 grand. So, where does the difference come from between the dinan site for the s2, and Caranddriver?

Originally posted by twelve-o-three
oh, oh! and 7K of that 18 was for the wheels, which score points for rarity, but you could get alotta wheel for 7K...

For shame

The wheels and tires are 7K by themselves according to Bimmer and they list the whole package as $17,498 (inc wheels)

Yup, I read it in Bimmer also. over $7k for wheels and tires. I was not all that impressed with the car, I thought that I could do a better job with 18k on top of a new M3.

Not so long ago, I saw a guy put an S2 M3 vert on a Mustang Dyno and he actually produced less power than stock. Go figure. Needless to say, he was not a happy camper. $18K is a lot of money for a new suspension and a fancy Dinan badge.

Originally posted by AAM429
Not so long ago, I saw a guy put an S2 M3 vert on a Mustang Dyno and he actually produced less power than stock. Go figure. Needless to say, he was not a happy camper. $18K is a lot of money for a new suspension and a fancy Dinan badge.

The same thing happened to a bunch of M5s :confused: ... it's not the first time I've seen a DINAN package come up short in the power department.

A friend in Portland (we dynoed at 2 facilities, both on a Mustang and a Dynojet) installed the Dinan CAI for his '03 E46 M3 and he lost 2 HP on average from his peak.

I was going to do the CAI, TB, and Diff. Now I'm thinking I might do the Diff only.

I was thinking about getting the wheels until i read the price. Did anyone ever find out the manufacturer of the wheels (i know dinan dosen't make them) and contact them directly? Do you think the manufacturer would sell them directly or possibly by a different name? I like the fact that they weigh so little and that they help to reduce the understeer.

does anybody know the offset of these wheels?
maybe they could even be custom made cheaper.

I would bet all I own that there is no way to get some except thru Dinan (legal reasons). "they" dont help reduce understeer, it was the change in contact patch (size) that made the changes. 20lbs per wheel is good, but there are lots of wheels that dont weigh much more than that for less $... (hamann magnesium?)

They wheels are made by a company called Rota... Vapor over in Japan was supposed to try and track the company down (I tried calling their US offices but never got an answer). If you could get the offset information, you could take that information to HRE, Fikse or Kinesis and have them custom make a wheel for you (all HREs are custom made but specifications).

Supposedly tho, DINAN has Rota in their back pocket so they can charge an arm and a leg fo a single piece wheel that costs more than a 3piece wheel.

>> I like the fact that they weigh so little and that they help to reduce the understeer....If you could get the offset information, you could take that information to HRE, Fikse or Kinesis and have them custom make a wheel for you (all HREs are custom made but specifications).<<

What am I missing here. Dinan charges $7K for their 19" wheels and rubber. I bought a set of Fikse 17" rims that are gorgeous. My price was under $3 grand complete. So even if 19s are $200 more per wheel, which I dont know if they are, then the set would be like $4 grand, or just over half what Dinan charges. Besides, you dont need 19s. YOu can get 18s, because its not the diameter which helps the handling, its the closer front to back cross section, and the size of the contact patch.

Theres no magic in these dinan rims, and theres no need to spend that kind of money on wheels which are that weight, and accomplish the same thing. And the offset is no secret either. Anybody can get the stock wheel offset, and calculate from there depending on size and cross section. NO more or less calculating than any of us who have bought aftermarket wheels had to do, and I doubt any of us payed anything near $7 grand!

Originally posted by paul e
[Theres no magic in these dinan rims [/B]

Well Said. Im sure its not the wheels. But we can thank Dinan for turning us onto the most effective wheel & tire size...

Yes we just need to find somebody who can tell us the offset... Nobody I know has figured it out yet. And the biggest question is, can I maintain my 13" ride height with a 275/30/19 tire up front.

Kevlar, do we know the offset of the stock wheels? well, maybe not the stock wheels, but the bmw option upgrade on the e46 m3 to the 19" wheels? Wont that tell us what is needed on, say, a set of Fikse 19s?

Or, why not just go with a set of 18s? So, whats the stock offset on the stock size ?

Factory 18" wheels
front offset 47
rear offset 26

Ok.. then, if we know the stock width of those 18" rims, and we want to emulate what Dinan has done, cant we take the dinan width, and with the stock offset and stock width, determine what the offset would be for the wider rims?

Heres a website which will help with calculating the correct offset for any size, compared to stock. With this info, and with vendors like Fikse around, anybody should be able to duplicate the Dinan 'magic' for about half the price.

http://toy4two.home.mindspring.com/offset.html

Rota wheels are made in the Phillipines.

"In America, Rota wheels are distributed exclusively by Cosmic Marketing Corp., located at # 28301 Industrial Blvd., Suite V Hayward, CA 94545 USA.
You’ll be glad to know that Rota Wheel meets the highest international standards. Its manufacturer, Philippine Aluminum Wheels, Inc. (PAWI) holds the coveted ISO 9001 (manufacturing quality and design) certification and QS 9000 which upholds the quality standards of the Big 3 U.S. carmakers."

I think Dinan wheels might be from SAC in Florida?

Originally posted by ruffytdog
That car probably started out as one of the slower times before the mods.

It also depends where the extra hp is made after the mods. If Dinan only increased the peak hp and the rest of the powerband stayed pretty close to the same, then yeah you would not see too much improvement in acceleration. I guess if somehow they were able to make 28hp throughout the whole powerband, then you would expect a very nice improvement.

If I had an E46 M3, I probably wouldn't think much about mods for acceleration (geeeezzz... low 13's in the 1/4). 0.96g sounds like something I would like to have.

I think that the achievement that Dinan might have been going for was not to improve 0-60 times dramatically, but improve 60-120 times and increase top end power. The final drive ratio change will make a big difference and the intake and exhaust sound bad ass. As for the suspension, I had Dinan S3 suspension on my '01 330i and it makes an insane difference. Bottom line is that all of these parts are warrantied bumper to bumper - mile to mile, and that is important to me. Forget the wheels there are many other great wheels out there: Fikse, BBS, HRE.

I think the wheels are made by a company called Champion. They make the Evo sport wheels, and are making a CSL rim replica (lighter, stronger, and cheaper!).

Please remember that the Car and Driver article compared a 2001 stock M3 with the DINAN S2 - the 0-60 and quarter mile testing was not done on the same day, possible the same track, and probably not the same driver (you have no idea how the 2001 was broken in or how many miles it had (given that our beloved S54 will turn a bit more power as it ages)...given that a stock coupe can do a quarter from about 12.75ish (confirmed over on M3Forum) to 13.5ish or worse depending on who is driving, I would not put one ounce of faith in Car and Driver...and I really don't think DINAN is all that great - except of course for the pimp wheels :evil2

From C&D site...

"Before testing any vehicle, we fill it with gas, check the fluids, and set the tires to the manufacturers' recommended pressures for light-load, high-speed running, if they are specified. Then we weigh it. At the test site we measure humidity, barometric pressure, and temperature. To eliminate the effects of weather on performance, we employ proprietary empirical correction factors to adjust all results to dry air at 14.7 psi and 60 degrees Fahrenheit using PsyCalc 98 software (www.linric.com) to crunch the weather data. Since cars run best in cold dense air, our correction tends to add time to results generated in low-temperature, high-pressure conditions and subtract time from hot-weather, low-pressure tests. To cancel the effects of the wind, all acceleration tests are run in both directions; the best runs in each direction are then averaged."

How We Test Cars (http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/features/2002/november/0211_feature_testing.xml?&)

Sorry to be the Necromancer.....Any updates?

A) On the Champion company producing cheaper CSL rims

and

b) The offset on the Dinan rims

Its like Saleen for Mustangs. All you're really paying for is the name.

The Dinan wheels are made by Champion Motor Sport in Pompano.
On the other hand my S2 Dinan has been performing very well. I absolutely felt a diffrence in acceleration. Also I have raced a few stock models which i easily pulled away in a very short time.

This may help you with your calculus:

http://www.1010tires.com/WheelOffsetCalculator.asp

FL410

Factory 18" wheels
front offset 47
rear offset 26

never mind he beat me to it

Sorry to be the Necromancer.....Any updates?

A) On the Champion company producing cheaper CSL rims

and

b) The offset on the Dinan rims

Champion Motorsports made the wheels ... they are called the RG4 (I have a set). The wheels look remarkable similar, but they are 1/2 wider and lighter. I want to say the DINAN wheels were not as light as advertised, but I do not remember. I do not believe the wheels can be bought from Champion Motorsports tho, they have to be bought through RAC Monolites (the wheel company with the design, which in turn gave that to Champion to produce).

go to http://racmonolites.com

I think I'm about to order a set of RG4s they look impressive--well designed and light.