What a letdown. After the beginning I thought Williams was in good shape, especially considering Ralf's placement and the fact that Michael was back in a pack of slower cars.

However, the entire thing went downhill from there - Ralf's crash, suspension damage, and subsequent retirement, Montoya's stop and go penalty, the inability of the Michelin intermediate compound to keep up with Bridgestone, etc. - Montoya was lucky to grab 6th. Unfortunately, he's no longer in the driver's championship :(


Your thoughts?

definitely did not go Williams way at all today. Williams barely hanging on in the constructors championship too.

And it was cold as hell too!

I'd have to agree with Villeneuve on Montoya: driver who shows no respect for his track rivals.

I'm the contrarian. I just want Michael to win his 6th Championship. I don't much care abuot the Constructors Championship. After Michael wins #6 to stand alone in the record book, then BMW can start kicking his butt. I'd much rather they did it without Montoya though.

Great race, and you must give props to m. schummacher's performance today! BMW still has a shot at constructors in Japan, however I'd like to see Ferrari finish it out again with both driver's and constructor's championship. also just for the record i really dislike montoya! o well, we'll see what happens 10.12.03 in suzuka...:b_blue:

It was bad from the get go, montoya had a horrible start and it only got worse.
This was a MAJOR CHOKE if you ask me.

Constructor's Championship is still wiiiiiiiiide open, which gives me plenty of reason to still cheer for Montoya (and Ralf).

If Michael wins the Driver's Championship at Suzuka he and Ferrari very well deserve it. Congrats to them, and I'm saying this as a die-hard Montoya fan.

And the season ain't over. Battles still raging . . .

Driver's
Montoya vs Raikkonen for 2nd
Ralf/Barrichello/Alonso for 3rd

Constructor's
Ferrari vs Williams
Sauber/BAR/Jaguar for 5th and a larger/vital share of the TV revenue. Critical for an independent team like Sauber.

Glad to see Justin Wilson have a good drive. Hopefully he'll secure his spot with Jaguar for next year.

Pass attempt on Barrichello:

I think Montoya's mindset may have made him anxious to pass Barrichello after the result and consequences of his failed pass attempt on Michael at Monza in the previous race.

Having said that . . .

Coulthard had gotten past Barrichello almost easily on the outside of Turn 1 on the previous lap, adding to the impression Barrichello's Ferrari was underperforming. Barrichello had pulled far off line to the right of the track, possibly dirtying his tires and allowing Coulthard to make the pass look easy.

Next lap Barrichello again drove a defensive line into Turn 1, but not nearly as far off the racing line, perhaps giving him better braking and turning performance into Turn 1 as compared to the previous lap vs Coulthard. Montoya may have expected he could duplicate Coulthard's pass. Video onboard Barrichello showed Montoya pulling alongside, perhaps even with Barrichello approaching the apex, their rear tires even.

I think here was the critical moment of decision:

1. Press ahead with inside line advantage into Turn 2, assuming Barrichello can/will give racing room, or

2. Back off for a later opportunity.

At the apex of Turn 1 Montoya lost some ground. He is about one wheel-width back as seen on video facing rearward from Barrichello's Ferrari. The two cars converge, squeezed laterally, wheels interlocked, tracking out from Turn 1 and approaching turn in for Turn 2.

Montoya's Williams backs off after turn in for Turn 2, wheels still interlocked, but Montoya's left wheels are well on the curbing, if not the grass, toward the apex of Turn 2. At this point Montoya's choices are:

1. Steer left further onto the grass for wheel clearance which will allow him to lift and get aft of Barrichello's car, at the risk of spinning, or

2. Apex Turn 2 with left two wheels off in the grass and right two wheels interlocked, hoping for racing room on his right from Barrichello.

I think Montoya was expecting to pass Barrichello on the outside of Turn 1, or at least while exiting Turn 2 with racing room from Barrichello, but it didn't work out that way.

As he pulled alongside Barrichello toward the apex Montoya's focus was probably on two things: trajectory toward the apex of Turn 2, balanced with interlocked wheels and proximity with Barrichello.

I think he sensed Barrichello steering for the apex of Turn 2 and not giving racing room, and Montoya lifted to relinquish position. However, by this time Montoya didn't have wheel clearance and couldn't relinquish without "going agricultural" onto the grass inside of Turn 2.

He decided to press on, wheels interlocked, dependent on Barrichello to give racing room. Montoya's right front touched Barrichello's left sidepod, tipping Barrichello into the spin.

Montoya's initial move on the outside of Turn 1 and the subsequent attempt to relinquish put him into a tough position heavily dependent on Barrichello's actions for the outcome.

Montoya should have waited for a more clear-cut passing opportunity, especially given that

1. It was only the third lap ofthe 73 lap race.

2. Montoya and Williams may already be under the stewards' microscope following Ralf's spin in Hungary, Ralf's incident at Hockenheim, Montoya's clash with Michael at the Nurburgring, and Montoya's early battle with Michael into Monza's second chicane.

I thought it was a rather harsh penalty on Montoya, imo. But I thought the overall race was excellent. Eventhough Williams didn't do well, the rest was exciting, with the weather scenarios and all. I thought Ferrari were geniuses when they waited to put the intermediates on and then they went with the slicks. But I they had like 10 seconds to make a decision. It worked out for them.

Button was doing well. Too bad his car blew. (as with Jacques)

I am still blown away by the difference in performance between the different tires. Button just cruised past Montoya on the infield like he was standing still. Amazing....

Montoya's move may not have been perfectly timed and completely safe, but let's remember that this is BMW and ferrari duking it out for the constructor's championship and Montoya trying for the drivers championship. Montoya had been hounding Barichello and was clearly faster. It's very unfortunate that Barichello was put out of the race as it was a very minor incident, but I don't think that's enough reason to ruin Montoya's race as well.

Isn't F1 still "wheel to wheel" racing? Why isn't Barichello penalized for not giving racign room? Did he just not see Montoya right next to him?

Also, I know F1 TV broadcasts are a little odd in that thay are generally commentary over someone elses video, but you would think that at least in the U.S. they would make use of replays like in other sports. It's kind of annoying to watch the race on TV and miss the majority of the action because they were feeding a different camera when it happened.

Jason

Originally posted by Phantom
And the season ain't over. Battles still raging . . .

Driver's
Montoya vs Raikkonen for 2nd
Ralf/Barrichello/Alonso for 3rd

Constructor's
Ferrari vs Williams
Sauber/BAR/Jaguar for 5th and a larger/vital share of the TV revenue. Critical for an independent team like Sauber.

Glad to see Justin Wilson have a good drive. Hopefully he'll secure his spot with Jaguar for next year.
saw the standing today. JPM is 10pts behind Michael. What happenes if there is a tie in points? Assuming MS and Kimi DNF and JPM wins 1st.

Originally posted by e46driver
saw the standing today. JPM is 10pts behind Michael. What happenes if there is a tie in points? Assuming MS and Kimi DNF and JPM wins 1st.

michael has the most wins so will win the tie and win the title... so jpm is out of it....

is that a FIA rule?

Yes, it's the way the rules would determine the tie-breaker.

Originally posted by jsaunde2
Montoya's move may not have been perfectly timed and completely safe, but let's remember that this is BMW and ferrari duking it out for the constructor's championship and Montoya trying for the drivers championship. Montoya had been hounding Barichello and was clearly faster. It's very unfortunate that Barichello was put out of the race as it was a very minor incident, but I don't think that's enough reason to ruin Montoya's race as well.

Isn't F1 still "wheel to wheel" racing? Why isn't Barichello penalized for not giving racign room? Did he just not see Montoya right next to him?

It's easy to rewind and slow-motion the VCR over and over, reviewing, analyzing, etc, after the fact to get the lessons learned. And that's my only intent. I don't fault Montoya. I'm just analyzing what happened and I'm trying to think of a better way to handle the situation in retrospect

I agree that Montoya was clearly faster than Barrichello during Lap 2. Given Montoya's faster pace, in retrospect, I think he probably would have had several better, more clear-cut opportunities to overtake on subsequent laps. It was only Lap 3 of 73 laps.

Montoya was clearly justified by pressuring Barrichello on the outside of Turn 1. Unfortunately, that move put Montoya in a sticky situation where he had to rely on Rubens yielding racing room. That didn't happen, there was contact, and Rubens spun. I'd call that a racing incident, not worthy of a penalty.

Barrichello's performance put him in a vulnerable position, allowing an opponent to draw alongside on the outside of Turn 1. If an opponent out-performs a racer such that the opponent can draw evenly alongside then, IMO, that opponent is entitled to racing room. Given that situation, in retrospect, I think Montoya earned racing room into Turn 2.

Denying racing room is foolhardy because the driver puts himself and his opponent at greater risk than is necessary. In this case either Montoya spins while lifting with two wheels off, Montoya and Rubens collide, Barrichello spins, or some combination of the above. It ain't worth it. Rubens should have honored Montoya's performance and given him racing room, if possible.


see what I mean?

I agree that the stewards should not have given Montoya a drive-thru penalty.

In my book, Montoya has gotten raw deals from the stewards 2 out of 3 times:

Montoya gave Schumi racing room outside of Turn 1 at Sepang last year, but Montoya was unjustly penalized.

Montoya gave racing room as he drove around the outside of Schumi at Dunlop Kurve (Turn 7) at the Nurburgring this year. The stewards got it right and didn't penalize Montoya.

I don't get it, MS passed someone while under yellow, and his rear tires were bald at one point. Had that been a BMW, they would have been penalized. I do not think Ferrari is treated the same way as the rest of the teams.

I see a lot of Montoya bashing (look at my name and you'll realize why im posting)... generally hes an aggressive passer, and thats not his fault, i remember during one race after montoya took a pass at michael and an accident almost occured, michael said he wouldve liked more room when montoya made for the pass, but its not his job to leave him more room...

say what you want about him, hes still young and has a lot of potential, along with a lot of other young drivers, and dont let it be said that hes the onlyguy out there like that, schumis been branded as a bully on the track many times before

just my thoughts

Originally posted by vjlax18
I don't get it, MS passed someone while under yellow, and his rear tires were bald at one point. Had that been a BMW, they would have been penalized. I do not think Ferrari is treated the same way as the rest of the teams.

you're not the only one, i go to planetF1.com for all my F1 updates, and one of the reporters made a tounge in cheek comment that the F in FIA stands for Ferrari... maybe that holds some truth for the last race...

Originally posted by vjlax18
I do not think Ferrari is treated the same way as the rest of the teams.
Gotta agree with ya there. Maybe it's like other things where people tend to give the reigning champ the benefit of the doubt.




Another pic, showing the point of contact on Rubens' sidepod

Same thing in Basketball. When Michael Jordan was leading the Bulls on a stampede through the NBA, they got away with murder. Which reminds me.... DO they ever enforce the travelling rule in basketball anymore?

Similar things happen in all sports.

The penalty on Montoya was bogus. If Scummie had made the same move, he would not have been penalized. Hell, he drove directly into Hill and Villenuvue. At the level theses guys are racing at, that was a pretty fair attempt at a pass. If it were club racing, I could see the penalty, but this is for the World Championship. Come on.

Furthermore, where is the sanction against Scummie for passing under the yellow?

Bogus.

Originally posted by Phantom
Barrichello's performance put him in a vulnerable position, allowing an opponent to draw alongside on the outside of Turn 1. If an opponent out-performs a racer such that the opponent can draw evenly alongside then, IMO, that opponent is entitled to racing room. Given that situation, in retrospect, I think Montoya earned racing room into Turn 2.

Denying racing room is foolhardy because the driver puts himself and his opponent at greater risk than is necessary. In this case either Montoya spins while lifting with two wheels off, Montoya and Rubens collide, Barrichello spins, or some combination of the above. It ain't worth it. Rubens should have honored Montoya's performance and given him racing room, if possible.


see what I mean?

I think that pic shows it all. In that pic JPM has already started backing off and is looking at Barichello's car. It's almost as though you can tell that JPM is wondering "what the hell is he doing?" Meanwhile, barichello is turning hard on top of JPM and he has nowhere to go.

I agree with you entirely, this was a racing incident that deserved no penalty to either driver.

On a side note, the only reason this incident sucked so bad for Rubens is that he couldn't get back on the track even when his car was only minimally damaged. I don't know how this could be handled but it just seems really crappy to be out of the race because the grass is wet or gravel or whatever else keeps you from getting a functioning car back on track.

Jason

It does seem that ferrari may get away with more than other teams and that does suck, but I have to say I thought Schumacher's pass was legit. It was a safe pass of a much slower car that began far before the yellow and may have been completed before he even saw the yellow. I don't think he needed a penalty, but I also don't think JPM deserved one ;)

It isn't just Schumacher's previous dominance that gets him the liniency, it's that he has a large and rabid fan base. I personally don't understand why so many people are such huge Schumacher fans, I guess I just have some need to root for an underdog.

Of course one of my least favorite things about Schumacher is his very sterile personality (that and the nickname "schumi", is he an anime character or something?). I also really like hearing/seeing JPM because he is very lively compared to Schumacher. I read an interview with him once where his response to being told how much Bernie makes or is worth was a simple "holy shit!" Ever since then I've been a fan of JPM's. Not many people at his level have managed to stay that entertaining.

But I still like Schumacher a little because you just have to like it that the guy gets paid $25 million a year to drive a car. :D

Jason

i was under the impression thatifyou dont stall out on a spin you canget a push out, maybe thats just qualifying...

and as for the yellow, it wouldve been pretty hard for him to missit or not see it, it was waving right in front ofhim as he made the pass, if im not mistaken

last year after all was told (endorsements, etc), schumi (youre definately right about the name by the way) made close to 100 mill, more than any other athlete (including tiger)

Originally posted by MontoyaWannaBe
i was under the impression thatifyou dont stall out on a spin you canget a push out, maybe thats just qualifying...

and as for the yellow, it wouldve been pretty hard for him to missit or not see it, it was waving right in front ofhim as he made the pass, if im not mistaken

last year after all was told (endorsements, etc), schumi (youre definately right about the name by the way) made close to 100 mill, more than any other athlete (including tiger)

On getting pushed out of the muck from the official formula 1 site:

"As a general rule a driver must drive the car ‘alone and unaided’. However, if a driver stops in a dangerous position during a race it is the responsibility of the marshals to move the car to safety as quickly as possible. This may involve assisting a driver to rejoin the race if this is feasible. However, if the car has stalled and the marshals’ assistance gets it restarted (a push start, in other words), then the car in question will be excluded from the race results."

The FIA regs:

"DRIVING
61) The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.

THE RACE
148) Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.
149) A race will not be stopped in the event of rain unless the circuit is blocked or it is dangerous to continue (see Article 153).
150) If a car stops during the race (except under Article 142c) and d), it must be removed from the track as quickly as possible so that its presence does not constitute a danger or hinder other competitors. If the driver is unable to drive the car from a dangerous position, it shall be the duty of the marshals to assist him. If any such assistance results in the engine starting and the driver rejoining the race, the car will be excluded from the results of the race.
151) During the race, drivers leaving the pit lane may only do so when the pit exit light is green and on their own responsibility, a marshal with a blue flag, or a flashing blue light, will also warn the driver if cars are approaching on the track."

Re. the pass under yellow Schumacher said “As for my move on Panis, I was aware of the yellow flags but I passed him well before them and then backed off early to be safe.” That's basically what I thought of it.

BTW this is what Rubens had to say about his spin: “With Montoya, we were running side-by-side. I thought I had left him enough space, but he touched me and I spun.”

Re. Schumacher's pay: I've read his salary (no endorsements) is 25 million.

Jason

Originally posted by MontoyaWannaBe
i was under the impression thatifyou dont stall out on a spin you canget a push out, maybe thats just qualifying...

In the race, you cannot be helped back onto the track by the marshalls (and remain in the race) unless your car is deemed to be in an unsafe position on the track.

Originally posted by MontoyaWannaBe
and as for the yellow, it wouldve been pretty hard for him to missit or not see it, it was waving right in front ofhim as he made the pass, if im not mistaken

I swore I saw him pass a waving yellow flag before he started the pass. Perhaps I'm mistaken. In any event, his was a far more egregious act than JPM's. I've attended to an accident on the track and had people race by the accident before (this under a red flag). It's not fun. As a racer, I think Scummie should be penalized dearly for his act, even if the pass was completed at the yellow flag. Incidents like JPM's are part of racing. Furthermore, as a racer, the general rule is that if a car is half way up on you by the turn-in, they own the corner. I don't see how his could be anything but a racing incident.

Perhaps that photo that goes around with Bernie's hand on Michael's crotch is more revealing that one might think. ;)

BTW, I'm a fan of neither driver, so don't think I'm taking sides.

HA!

as for getting pushed back on the track, i thought the rule was you are allowed help back on the track only as long as you dont stall the car... cause i remember one race (dont remember which one), ms went off the track but his car was still running and the marshalls pushed him back on and he continued on in the race. since his car was off the track, i dont think it would have been considered in an unsafe position either. but then also maybe since rubens car was dug into the sand, they wouldnt have been able to even push his car back onto the track if they wanted to.

i think schumi should have been penalised for passing under the yellow...

oh man, thats a great pic... hadn't seen that before....

ha great pic

i stand corrected on the being stuck issue, and i guess my eyes fail me on the yellow flag thing (i cant find my glasses)

just reading over Forbes.com, michael got a $35 million salary and made $75 million after endorsements and the like... it also says hes getting a 10% raise through 2006... i wonder if they just give him ferraris or they just say "screw it, like you cant afford it"

i heard ralf makes somewhere in the teens... i wonder how much of that is his skill and how much is BMWs hopes that he could become another michael (not gonna happen)?

Originally posted by MontoyaWannaBe
i wonder if they just give him ferraris or they just say "screw it, like you cant afford it"

I would imagine he gets a "company car." In the past it was no uncommon for a driver to get a car as a "keeper" as a bonus (sometimes including their race car).

:chix

My boy Kimi would ahve been golden if not for rain. I stood in that rain and watched things get worse and worse for the Michelin runners. he still did very well to get second.

What I don't understand is what happened to Montoya on the final four or five laps. I mean, he was charging HARD to pull up and go by Fisicella (sp?) like that, and positioned himself right on Heidfeld's rear, also within striking distance of Trulli.

Then, inexplicably, he faded back father and farther in the waning laps. All of us at the track wondered what happened. Those who watched the race on TV and had the benefit of the commentary...

What gave?

Not that I'm a Montoya fan, as I'm more of a Ralf guy, but I do want BMW to do well as a team. He was FLYING up until he passed Fisicella, then dropped back off of Heidfeld.

:95

not sure what happened, i havent read much on the race after watching it, but to stay alive inthe drivers he had to grab 5th and he had 6th but was almost a lap behind 5th place with only a hanfful to go, so maybehe just wanted to finish and get points since his chances for staying in were shot... i dont imagine he would push his car when its not going to accomplish much...

ya, jpm was a lap down to heidfeld anyways.... so no need to push, just take 6th and finish the race....

I really, really dislike Schumacher (Michael) after this race.

The fact that his tires were obviously not compliant with regulations is BS, considering the huge fuss Ferrari/Bridgestone made over Michelin's slightly wider fronts at Monza.

Furthermore, the pass under yellow was ridiculous.

Montoya did the best he could under the circumstances, and was not at fault for Barrichello's spin - my worst fear was to see the Ferrari (although it could have been Barrichello, not Michael, in this case) move forward of Montoya and become difficult to catch. I think Montoya knew he had to try to get ahead right at the beginning, because when a car is in first and doesn't have to deal with traffic they become much harder to catch (as evidenced by Raikkonen's lead in the first part of the race).

That said, notice how Montoya was holding the inside line in turns 1 and 2. Barrichello tried to dart in from the outside, and refused to give Juan Pablo room, as Phantom said. Not only is that relatively unsportsmanlike, it's what caused Barrichello to spin when he tried to cut in to the side of Montoya's car. Montoya was just taking the correct line through the turn, and did not attempt to cut off Barrichello.

Notice how Ferrari moved the extremely worn, seemingly groove/tread-less tires from Schumacher's car into the back of the garage, out of the public eye?

Next season I hope Williams will dominate, and come back with a vengeance against the cheaters in the red cars.

Originally posted by fredo
as for getting pushed back on the track, i thought the rule was you are allowed help back on the track only as long as you dont stall the car... cause i remember one race (dont remember which one), ms went off the track but his car was still running and the marshalls pushed him back on and he continued on in the race. since his car was off the track, i dont think it would have been considered in an unsafe position either. but then also maybe since rubens car was dug into the sand, they wouldnt have been able to even push his car back onto the track if they wanted to.

Yeah, that was after
Montoya gave racing room as he drove around the outside of Schumi at Dunlop Kurve (Turn 7) at the Nurburgring this year. The stewards got it right and didn't penalize Montoya.

Schumi's car was high-centered with his rear wheels just off the ground past the pavement edge. His car was in a very dangerous position relative to cars entering the hairpin from 180+ mph down to 60 mph.

It was much quicker for the marshallers to nudge his car forward until the rear wheels got traction than to clear his car off of the track. It was a situation like Geo31 and Jason mention.

Ferrari's cheating did not surprise me at all but the drive through penalty on Montoya was absolutely ridiculous and completely screwed him over since he was forced to take a lap on slicks after the rain had begun. I am a big fan of Montoya due to his aggressive driving nature and flair, and I really hope that BMW Williams can come back and take the Constructors Championship at Suzuka after this nightmarish race.

"He was FLYING up until he passed Fisicella, then dropped back off of Heidfeld."

Well, Heidfeld lapped him. Fisichella was the highest-placing competitor on the same lap, and Montoya passed him for 6th place. To get anything higher (and remain in the Driver's Championship) he would have had to make up another lap and pass Heidfeld.

yeah, the more i think about his drive through, the more angry i get... even if he was at fault (which he wasnt), it wasnt worth taking him out of the championship for that...

Q: could/did montoya pit while doing a drive through? i noticed that it started to rain when they announced the call and all the big boys (mb, ferrari, bmw) had just put on dry tires and were throwing on their rain tires, could he pit and just use that as his drive through?

Originally posted by MontoyaWannaBe
Q: could/did montoya pit while doing a drive through?

You cannot service the car when serving the penalty.

Originally posted by stjobs
"He was FLYING up until he passed Fisicella, then dropped back off of Heidfeld."

Well, Heidfeld lapped him. Fisichella was the highest-placing competitor on the same lap, and Montoya passed him for 6th place. To get anything higher (and remain in the Driver's Championship) he would have had to make up another lap and pass Heidfeld.

Gotcha. That was not very apparent to me in the stands.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Do you guys think Michelin will make much progress on their wet and intermediate tires for next season?

Do you guys think Michelin will make much progress on their wet and intermediate tires for next season?

I don't know. How many races get rained on? I think they will improve, but I don't think they will get better than Bridgestone.

I'd like to comment on the yellow flag incident....imo, isn't this a local yellow? This happens all the time in F1 due to the length of the track and the opportunity for the trackside workers to lift the wrecked or broken down cars out of the way. MS could pass as fast as he wanted up until he got to the corner where the flags were waving, no matter if he could see them from up the straight. He made the pass easy and way before the corner and therefore did not break any rules. ???

Originally posted by Glenn 328is
I'd like to comment on the yellow flag incident....imo, isn't this a local yellow? This happens all the time in F1 due to the length of the track and the opportunity for the trackside workers to lift the wrecked or broken down cars out of the way. MS could pass as fast as he wanted up until he got to the corner where the flags were waving, no matter if he could see them from up the straight. He made the pass easy and way before the corner and therefore did not break any rules. ???

That's what I thought too, but I was unable to find the F1 rules on passing.

I generally think that penalties should generally only be assessed in situations where it is apparent that the driver was trying to gain an edge, retaliate, or hinder another driver in breaking the rule while causing some sort of safety risk. I really don't think there was much risk in MS's move so I can't wish a penalty on him no matter how much I dislike him.

Jason

yeah, at the time i was angry about it, but after seeing a replay on TV, it really was a fair pass, but im still heated about the drive through

i was looking forward to a close and intense final race, now its pretty much obvious that MS is going to take it, barring some huge event or bad luck... oh well, at least the constructors is still up for grabs/second place in drivers

To all those Schumi haters out there....

It's a local yellow and here's a picture showing Michael passing Panis before the yellow zone starts,


...The stewards did not take any action and new photographic evidence proves they were right not to do...but not by much.

Our picture above shows that Schumacher had his nose in front of Panis by the time they arrived at the first yellow flag (click on the image to enlarge).

The picture should clear up the controversy over the fact that Schumacher went unpunished while title rival Juan Pablo Montoya was given a penalty for his clash with Rubens Barrichello.


The accompanying article - http://www.itv-f1.com/news/news_story/18126

MS rocks!!!!! I worship Schumi, hate Montoya and it was glorious to watch Michael lap him right in front of my eyes (I was in the J stand, BTW) and the announcer going "Well, so much for that championship....". Ahhhh!!! Was the best day of my life!!! Made it even more so cause I was right behind this huge contingent of Montoya fans that went awfully quiet after that!!!
:redspot

"MS rocks!!!!! I worship Schumi, hate Montoya and it was glorious to watch Michael lap him right in front of my eyes (I was in the J stand, BTW) and the announcer going "Well, so much for that championship....". Ahhhh!!! Was the best day of my life!!!"

Glad to hear you had a good time. I hope it was based on sportsmanship and not on cheating like suspicious tire compounds, marginal respect for regulations, and team orders...

I couldn't go (but had a ticket in turn 1/2) because I moved to S. Florida and couldn't find a flight back Sunday night. Unfortunately I had to be here first thing Monday morning.

At least there's the Constructor's still to go. Hopefully Williams will prevail, so I can go to Shelton Ferrari (two blocks from my place) and talk shit. :)

montoya wouldnt have falled so far behind if they didnt give him the drivethrough penalty right as everyone was switching from dry tires back to wet tires, hed had to do a whole extra lap on the drys, he kept sliding off the track during that lap, they shouldve at least let him change tires then given him the call to do the drivethrough... just my opinion

Well, he honestly shouldn't have even received the drive-through. He was the one taking the right line through the turn and Barrichello aggressively moved in, expecting to force Montoya off-track - when Montoya held his ground Barrichello spun. More evidence of the FIA = FerrariIA

I stopped short of analyzing the aftermath of their contact in part to keep my analysis short. I want to explain the vehicle dynamics involved in the video and how it LOOKS to the average viewer like Montoya is PUSHING Rubens off the track, when in fact the trajectories of the two cars are pretty much beyond the control of either driver.

I'll say this for short:

Montoya did all he could do to avoid Rubens' spinning Ferrari, given that he had two left wheels on the grass, then two left wheels on the curbing, with drastically reduced braking traction, then finally all four wheels on pavement.

In addition, once Barrichello's Ferrari begins its spin, the slip angle of his tires WILL take him to the INSIDE of the turn, at worst, and straight on in a straight line, at best. For an example of spin trajectory, look at Montoya's spin in Australia this year. He ended up on the INSIDE of the turn, in the grass, while DC drove by. Need another one? Look at Montoya's spin at Canada this year. Again, he ended up on the INSIDE of the right-hand turn. [It probably doesn't help my argument to use examples of Montoya spinning :rolleyes: :lol:]

The absence of "tire smoke" from the back tires only shows that Montoya doesn't have locked brakes; it does not indicate a lack of braking. In fact, I'm willing to bet he is threshold braking short of lockup. That is to say, Montoya is using all available traction to brake in a straight line.

For those of us with copies of the race, I urge you to review it again, carefully. Note the position of Montoya's right rear tire relative to the white paint along the pavement edge. Note how far that places his car off the pavement. Also, note how Montoya's path abruptly changes from turning to simply sliding straight on when he loses traction as the skid plate bottoms on the curb.

In the meantime, here is another photo taken at Turn 2. Note how Montoya is ALONGSIDE Barrichello. I think it's fair to say that Rubens seriously squeezed Montoya off of the track. Note the steering angle of his front tires vs that of JPM. JPM has no racing room.

http://f1.racing-live.com/photos/2003/indianapolis/diapo_355.jpg

More analysis to follow . . .

The rest of my analysis concerns events AFTER the point of contact and how the AVERAGE viewer, unfamiliar with the rules of racing and the behavior of race cars, could be easily convinced that the incident deserves a penalty.

If spinning in a low speed turn of flat camber an F1 car will generally travel to the INSIDE of the turn. In Australia and Canada Montoya spun to the inside. Both turns are flat, 2nd gear turns taken at approximately 120-130 km/h. Turn 2 at Indy is also a flat, 2nd gear turn taken at approximately 120 km/h. That information tells us that if left untouched, Rubens' Ferrari will travel to the INSIDE of Turn 2, across Montoya's path.


Once Rubens' left sidepod strikes Montoya's right front tire Rubens is placed in an oversteer situation, the beginning of his spin. The car begins to rotate with the rear tires slipping toward the outside of the turn and the front tires continuing to steer toward the inside of Turn 2. Rubens attempts to catch the spin by countersteering, as seen in the photo below:

http://f1.racing-live.com/photos/2003/indianapolis/diapo_308.jpg

The sliding rear tires and steering front tires carry Rubens to the inside of Turn 2, until the chassis slip angle exceeds the front tire steering angle, at which point he is in a full spin. Rubens' Ferrari continues to pivot until the chassis is completely sideways, all four tires sliding. From this point the Ferrari travels in a straight line, slowed abruptly by the skidding on asphalt of ALL FOUR tire contact patches, about the same as if he had locked all four brakes while braking in a straight line. Montoya can not match the Ferrari’s rate of deceleration until Montoya gets good braking action with all four wheels onto the asphalt. And remember, after being squeezed off the track by Rubens, JPM has two left wheels on slippery curbing and/or grass. Therefore, short of the necessary instantaneous and fully effective braking, Montoya is powerless to avoid further contact.

From the pic below we can clearly see that Montoya has two left wheels off of the pavement. If he were to apply significant braking at this point he would get effective braking force by the right side tires on pavement, but very little braking force by the left side tires on the grass/curb. His car would be dragged heavily by the imbalanced right side tires. This would pivot the Williams to the right, effectively steering it off of the curbing and into Barrichello’s Ferrari.

http://f1.racing-live.com/photos/2003/indianapolis/diapo_306.jpg

But what if Montoya instead chose to continue the left had turn rather than braking? We know from Rubens’ proven trajectory that continuing the turn would not avoid the Ferrari that is in the process of spinning toward the inside of Turn 2. So, if Montoya continues turning he will strike the Ferrari that is crossing his path in a spin.
But that’s not all.

Look again at the photo below

http://f1.racing-live.com/photos/2003/indianapolis/diapo_308.jpg

Just as the initial contact created an oversteer situation for the Ferrari, the contact with Montoya’s right front wheel will push the front of his car further into the turn, thereby creating an oversteer situation for the Williams, too. Given this information I would argue that Montoya CAN NOT continue the turn without spinning due to Rubens striking the right front of Montoya’s Williams.

[Those of you with access to Montoya’s racecar telemetry, please post it here :D]

Review the video again, in slow motion and frame-by-frame. Watch how Montoya’s car actually loses traction momentarily and lurches in a straight line as the skid plate bottoms on the curbing. So for a few milliseconds Montoya couldn’t do anything; he was a passenger in a car with no traction.

After that, Montoya initially applied some combination of braking and/or steering until he had all four wheels on the pavement. Once he had all tires on asphalt Montoya applied effective straight line braking force short of locking his brakes. Was it maximum braking, minimum braking, very little braking, insufficient braking, or did he actually press straight ahead and push Rubens off of the track? Anyone with high performance driving experience will tell you that the most effective braking is done in a straight line, just short of locking the brakes. That’s what Montoya did.

http://f1.racing-live.com/photos/2003/indianapolis/diapo_356.jpg

Montoya is looking at his delicate nosecone and front wing touching a Ferrari with all four wheels locked and skidding to a halt perpendicular across his nose. Any racer’s natural reaction would likely be to straighten the wheel and apply maximum performance braking short of locking the brakes. I would argue that Montoya did the best braking that he could.

http://f1.racing-live.com/photos/2003/indianapolis/diapo_357.jpg

Need more evidence? Remember that during the spin the point of contact, if any, with Montoya's Williams progressed from JPM's right front tire, to the right endplate of his front wing, then finally to the tip of his nose cone. If Montoya’s car had pushed the Ferrari with any significant force, that fragile wing endplate and/or nosecone would have snapped off. Also,the Ferrari’s sidepod would have significantly more damage beyond the tire mark seen below:


http://f1.racing-live.com/photos/2003/indianapolis/diapo_358.jpg

Need further proof? Look at Montoya’s pit stops. No maintenance was performed on the front wing. Montoya drove the REMAINING 70 LAPS with that same front wing and nose cone.

That concludes my argument. Again, I am not attempting to find fault with either driver. The contact and subsequent spin is a racing incident not worthy of penalty. Both drivers contributed to the outcome.

Some may argue that Montoya attempted a pass punishable by penalty. I would argue that you are woefully unfamiliar with the rules of racing in general, and Formula One in particular, particularly as they apply to right of way, racing line, and racing room.

Others would argue that Montoya should have lifted sooner. I would argue that Montoya earned racing room into Turn 1 and that video and pictures show that Rubens’ unsportsmanlike or mistaken denial of racing room prohibited Montoya from lifting with the resultant interlocked wheels into Turn 2.

Some may argue that Montoya caused the collision or that Montoya hit Rubens. Again, I would argue that Rubens steered into Turn 2 in a manner that either struck Montoya’s Williams or pressed Montoya so far off the track that the resultant loss of traction carried his car into the Ferrari.

Others may argue that in the aftermath Montoya bullied Rubens’ Ferrari sideways off of the track into the gravel. I would argue that vehicle dynamics beyond both drivers’ control dictated the paths of their cars following the initial contact.

1. I AGREE that Montoya SHOULD HAVE WAITED FOR A MORE CLEAR-CUT OPPORTUNITY TO PASS. This in itself is not worthy of penalty.

2. I also AGREE that Rubens denied racing room.

3. BOTH drivers contributed to a racing incident not worthy of penalty.

Chances are you just spend more time analyzing things that either driver. :)

Great analysis Phantom. I agree with what you said in general, although I may put more emphasis on the unstable condition of Montoya's car after the impact. Montoya couldn't just slam on the brakes and hope for the best, he had to fight to keep his car from spinning.

Also, I think these pictures make it clear that Rubens forced JPM off-track and then lied when he said he left JPM enough room. Squeezing another car off-track until it has two wheels off when you finally hit it is not leaving enough room. Rubens' statement after the race makes it clear that he knew that JPM was there and knowingly forced him off-track. It may not have been intentional but he either knew, or should have known what he was doing and what was likely to happen. Hell Rubens' left front was almost on the curbing just before the contact.

It would be one thing if Rubens hadn't seen that JPM was even with him going into the turn, but given that he knew JPM was there I have to say that this incident was at least 75% Rubens' fault. Especially given the fact that it is highly likely that Rubens was intentionally holding up JPM for MS's benefit.

Anyway, JPM probably isn't the best driver in the world, but just about everyone driving F1 is already a phenomenal driver (including JPM) so it's not like he's some NASCAR dumbass ramming someone because he looked at his girlfriend funny. The end result is that BMW got screwed.

Jason

Originally posted by jsaunde2
Anyway, JPM probably isn't the best driver in the world, but just about everyone driving F1 is already a phenomenal driver (including JPM) so it's not like he's some NASCAR dumbass ramming someone because he looked at his girlfriend funny. The end result is that BMW got screwed.

Ignorance is bliss....

Carry on.

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Ignorance is bliss....

Carry on.

Ignorance of what?

The fact is that virtually everyone in F1 is unquestionably a fantastic driver, able to do things that the other 99% of professional drivers cannot.

The fact is that NASCAR drivers fairly routinely crash opponents out of the race intentionally. Whether the drivers or series officials admit it or not, it seems as though everyone reporting on the sport acknowledges it.

Finally, Phantom's pictures and analysis make it clear that BMW was screwed by the penalty.

If your going to make a rude comment, at least say something meaningful along with it.

Jason

another question i had about the race... how come ferrari, jordan and bar couldnt have their tobacco advertising on their cars but renault and mclaren could?

Originally posted by fredo
another question i had about the race... how come ferrari, jordan and bar couldnt have their tobacco advertising on their cars but renault and mclaren could?

It might have to do with whether the advertiser sells cigarettes in the United States. I do not think West sells in the US and I'm unsure about Mild Seven.

I'm also curious about how they go about blacking out the advertisers. I noticed at one point I could see the outlines of the blacked out letters in benson and hedges in the reflection on the front wing.

Jason

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Chances are you just spend more time analyzing things that either driver. :)

As a fighter pilot and instructor I've regularly spent 5 hours debriefing 35-minute aerial engagements to hammer home the lessons learned. Stakes are high, just as in top-tier racing.

I think a motivated driver would review the information at his/her disposal to get lessons learned from an incident such as this. Personally I learned quite a bit by analyzing it. Reminds me of situations I've had on track, and this is tucked away in my back pocket for use in potential future situations. I posted it here to share the info with anyone who might be interested.

Why did I take a bunch of time (about 4 hours in all) to research, analyze, and write this? Firstly, I was on a short layover in Hong Kong with the spare time and I couldn't sleep. Secondly, writing is a hobby of mine, maybe a second career some day, and this was interesting material (to me, anyway). Practice. Thirdly, I originally wrote this in response to immature taunts from misinformed/uniformed folks in an F1 forum (Owned). Fourthly, I've carried my former days as a fighter pilot over to the racetrack, including in-depth and detailed review habits to glean lessons learned.

Next time I'm in the early laps of a trackday on the bike or car, or the early laps of a kart race, or racing online, I'll probably have patience to wait for a proper passing opportunity, and I'll probably remember to give racing room to a challenger.

By now the horse is dead, I've beaten it to a bloody mess, dismembered and buried it, even laid the tombstone. So I'll spare y'all from writing much more about it, cool?

p.s. As a racer yourself, if you saw the race, care to comment?

Hey Phantom, fantastic analysis!!! :clap:

Thanks for taking the time to type it all out in such detail and posting.

Originally posted by fredo
another question i had about the race... how come ferrari, jordan and bar couldnt have their tobacco advertising on their cars but renault and mclaren could?

It's got to do with restrictions applied to the sponsoring cigarette companies on the number of teams that they can run in the US sporting their livery. Marlboro(Ferrari), BAT(BAR) and RJ Reynolds(Jordan) are restricted by their involvement in CART and NASCAR, while the West (McLaren) and the Mild Seven(Renault) brand owners do not have any other teams running in the US.

Just read about it this morning. Here's the extract and the link...


Tobacco advertising law in the USA restricts each tobacco company to just one sponsorship of a team or event. Take Marlboro, for example. They already sponsor the Penske team in the IRL and therefore cannot sponsor Ferrari in the USA or anyone else for that matter.

The NASCAR Winston Cup is another case in point. Winston is owned by R J Reynolds who also market B+H in the USA, so strike Jordan from running full livery. And talking of strikes, Lucky Strike’s owner BAT used their allocation with the Player’s brand in CART. But Reemtsma and Imperial Tobacco, who own West, don’t have any other sponsorship in the USA, so could run fully branded with McLaren.


http://www.itv-f1.com/asktheteam/asktheteam_story/18167

Isn't that the driving force behind the Canadian Grand Prix being dropped from the league?

There has been some speculation that the Canada GP will be back next year. But it isn't confirmed. :dunno

well guys we lost the chance to have JPM as world champ with BMW/Williams....he has moved to Mclaren. :(


and yes, the Canadian GP is on and the French GP is off.

regards,
terry

Originally posted by Grd4Spd
well guys we lost the chance to have JPM as world champ with BMW/Williams....he has moved to Mclaren. :(


and yes, the Canadian GP is on and the French GP is off.

regards,
terry

those are some bold statements.... have some links to back them up? :confused:

Can you give a link or share the source of your info? I read this in F1racing.net, but it seems like mere rumor.

From F1racing.net:

Juan Pablo Montoya is off to McLaren - the rumour moved into top-gear after the Colombian failed to win Williams' first world title since 1997.

German daily Bild reckons Woking-based chief Ron Dennis is ready to buy the 27-year-old out of his BMW-Williams contract for an immediate switch in 2004.

The compensation fee to Williams, reportedly agreed by both parties after Sunday's Indy race, has been quoted as anywhere between $10 and $25 million.

Bild says a 'gentlemen's agreement' between Dennis and Sir Frank was reached earlier this year where if Montoya didn't win the title, he'd be free to go.

Mercedes' Norbert Haug insisted there was 'nothing in' the renewed speculation. 'We aren't conducting any negotiations,' said the German, 'and I can assure you we wouldn't pay an indemnity for anyone.'

Clearly, Williams' spokesman - however - doesn't really know what's going to happen. 'I can only presume Juan's going to see out his contract,' he said.

Originally posted by fredo
those are some bold statements.... have some links to back them up? :confused:


i have some VERY close F1 insider sources, so i cant back it up offically other than to say its happening....however you will see the official release in due time, keep an eye on the sites for Silly Season stuff.


regards,
terry

ps - i forgot to mention that JV takes JPMs seat at Williams and the Canadian GP is 100% and the French GP is no more (they owe Bernie 11+million so "sod em!")

"i have some VERY close F1 insider sources, so i cant back it up offically other than to say its happening"

You actually think we will believe this coming from a guy with 23 posts? Look at Villeneuve's recent races, he's been horrible. There's no way he'd take the first seat at Williams.

Originally posted by stjobs
You actually think we will believe this coming from a guy with 23 posts?

easy thar cowboy! patience my dear child, patience :smoke2:

regards,
terry

Originally posted by jsaunde2
The fact is that virtually everyone in F1 is unquestionably a fantastic driver


:biglaughb

You realize don't you that probably more than half the grid is paying for their ride while better drivers who can't pay are without a ride?

Originally posted by jsaunde2
able to do things that the other 99% of professional drivers cannot.

Sure.

Originally posted by jsaunde2
The fact is that NASCAR drivers fairly routinely crash opponents out of the race intentionally.

True. So does Scummie.

Originally posted by Phantom
p.s. As a racer yourself, if you saw the race, care to comment?

Well, I'm a racer and I think Montoya got screwed.

I can't comment on your lengthy analysis however since I didn't bother to read it. Not dissing it, just don't have time.

But, my point is that:

1) This rule was applied very inconsistently (so far only Montoya and R. Scummie have been dinged by it that I can recollect).

2) Montoya made a bit of an optimistic move, but Rubens made a stupid move to chop the corner. One could actually argue that he was trying to help Scummie's chances in the championship by taking an opportunity to take out his closest competitor (don't laugh or scream - this is F1 - stupid stuff happens).

3) Regardless of "2" above, this didn't warrant a sanction and especially not in light of the championship battle.

Originally posted by Grd4Spd
i have some VERY close F1 insider sources, so i cant back it up offically other than to say its happening....however you will see the official release in due time, keep an eye on the sites for Silly Season stuff.

Unless your "inside sources" are Jean Todt, Ron Dennis, Frank Williams, and their lawyers, your sources don't mean squat. One of my best friends gets calls in his office from team leaders at the top of the sport (we talked the weekend of the Indy GP and he had customers in every top race that weekend - F1, CART, IRL, ALMS, NASCAR, etc). Ross Brawn even called him and I'm sure they don't discuss that stuff. Furthermore, even team members (below the very top) don't know what's going on with that stuff.

That stuff you posted was pure speculation. It was posted on Autosport.com but it was pretty clear it was just speculation that was going around the paddock.

There is so much subterfuge in F1 you can't believe anything until it happens.

Originally posted by Geo31
Well, I'm a racer and I think Montoya got screwed.

heh, most (non ferrari) fans feel the same.

1) This rule was applied very inconsistently (so far only Montoya and R. Scummie have been dinged by it that I can recollect).

actually this rule is applied consistently (and quite liberally) to the opposition IF you are:

a) not driving a ferrari

b) not M$ or RB

in other words if you are from Maranello (with hand in the FIA/MA"FIA" cookie jar) then the "rules" dont apply, this it obvious.


2) Montoya made a bit of an optimistic move


it is a "Race" isnt it?.......wait......this is F1....everyone races except Scuderia


but Rubens made a stupid move to chop the corner.



....but Williams gets the penality.....true MA"FIA" style



One could actually argue that he was trying to help Scummie's chances in the championship by taking an opportunity to take out his closest competitor (don't laugh or scream - this is F1 - stupid stuff happens).

and that was Rubens job....and with a little help from his friends (MA"FIA") the task was completed.

3) Regardless of "2" above, this didn't warrant a sanction and especially not in light of the championship battle.

100% correct.

Mikey and Rubens molested last years race/finish, so this year they didnt want to directly offend the (now suspicious) American F1 public so they let the MA"FIA" make this years winning move.


regards,
terry

Originally posted by Geo31
[B]Unless your "inside sources" are Jean Todt, Ron Dennis, Frank Williams, and their lawyers, your sources don't mean squat.


patience my dear racer, patience. ;)



One of my best friends gets calls in his office from team leaders at the top of the sport (we talked the weekend of the Indy GP and he had customers in every top race that weekend - F1, CART, IRL, ALMS, NASCAR, etc).


"my source is bigger than yours!" (chanted with "my dad can beat up your dad" melody)

patience, patience.

There is so much subterfuge in F1 you can't believe anything until it happens.


......well, depends on your "source" ;)


regards,
terry

Originally posted by Grd4Spd
"my source is bigger than yours!" (chanted with "my dad can beat up your dad" melody)


:biglaughb Hehe

Originally posted by Grd4Spd
......well, depends on your "source" ;)

Hey, if Bernie or Max is your uncle...... we have to talk with him. :)

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Chances are you just spend more time analyzing things that either driver. :)

Bryan
As a racer yourself, if you saw the race, care to comment with more than just patronizing one-liners?

"As a racer yourself, if you saw the race, care to comment with more than just patronizing one-liners?"

Seconded.

I'm sure Williams goes over footage and telemetry with both drivers to get feedback about performance, what should be altered for the next race, etc.

Originally posted by Phantom
Bryan
As a racer yourself, if you saw the race, care to comment with more than just patronizing one-liners?

Chill their buddy. I wasn't patronizing just kidding around, hence the :). I thought your analysis was quite good. What about my comment struck you as patronizing? Honestly, that was the farthest thing from my mind.

I also seriously doubt Montoya ever sat down and analyzed this specific incident frame by frame...he doesn't strike me as that kind of driver. He figures he was screwed, and no amount of analyzing is going to change his mind. That's the way I am. I leave it up to my engineer (when I'm racing with one) to go back and do stuff like that if he feels the need. There's plenty to be learned from the incident for folks like us, but I'm pretty sure there aren't any real "lessons" that Montoya will take away from the incident...he'd try the same pass tomorrow, which is the reason I like him so much as a driver.

That's not to say that Montoya doesn't spend hours analyzing tape and data to become a better driver (as any F1 driver probabyl does), just that I don't think there are any real lessons to be learned from this incident for a driver of his level. For drivers like us, who have to pay for crash damage and aren't racing to be F1 World Champions, there are certainly some lessons to be learned.

Originally posted by Geo31
:biglaughb

You realize don't you that probably more than half the grid is paying for their ride while better drivers who can't pay are without a ride?

Who's paying for a ride? It's definitely not:

M Schu
RB
JPM
R Schu
Raikkonen
Coulthard
Trulli
Alonso
Frentzen
Heidfeld
Webber
Villenueve
Button

and probably not:

Wilson
Panis
Da Matta
Verstappen

That's well over half the grid. Now while some seats may have been bought I find it hard to believe that there are more than a handful or people who are willing and able to do this and only a very few seats where the team would sacrafice results to get a little more money.

BTW, having a sponsor who is willing to pay to put their name on the car if your driving it doesn't count as paying for a ride. I believe Verstappen has this sort of arrangement.

This isn't world challenge or Trans-am where anyone who can blow a few hundred k can pay for a car for a season. I would think it would cost at least several million dollars to buy a seat if you weren't the very top talent available for that seat.

Also, do you really think there are just vast numbers of Ralf's and JPM's or even Trulli's or Frentzen's waiting in the wings?

Jason

Originally posted by jsaunde2
BTW, having a sponsor who is willing to pay to put their name on the car if your driving it doesn't count as paying for a ride. I believe Verstappen has this sort of arrangement.

Yes it does...from the standpoint of a race car driver who has done both. Trust me. Having a sponsor pay is just another way of paying for the ride. There's a HUGE difference between having a sponsor pick up the tab, and actually being paid a salary to drive a race car.

Also, do you really think there are just vast numbers of Ralf's and JPM's or even Trulli's or Frentzen's waiting in the wings?

Nope, because there aren't enough talented drivers out there who get started early enough, have the family money to push them through the lower series, happen to be sitting in the right place at the right time when an oppurtunity surfaces, or any other number of reasons. There are tons of talented drivers in the world...but very, very few who are able to make the stars align in such a way as to make it to the pinnacle of the sport...particularly in the U.S. where the system for getting top drivers into top rides is shotty at best.

The reason all the talent in the U.S. goes to NASCAR is because they DO have an established means of getting drivers all the way from dirt-track karts to Winston Cup AND there are people who are willing to foot the bill at the lower level, knowing that they aren't going to see any real return from their spending.

Somehow, you figure that because a driver chooses NASCAR, and might talk with an accent, that he/she must be an inferior talent...and you mostly figure wrong. The top drivers in NASCAR are just as talented as the top drivers in most any motorsport. You can't compare the whole of F1 to the whole of NASCAR, because there are tons more NASCAR drivers than F1, just like there are tons of drivers throughout Europe driving in lower forms of Formula and Touring series that don't have the talent to make it to F1 either, but the best in those series are the ones who move on to F1 because there's an established ladder system.

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Yes it does...from the standpoint of a race car driver who has done both. Trust me. Having a sponsor pay is just another way of paying for the ride. There's a HUGE difference between having a sponsor pick up the tab, and actually being paid a salary to drive a race car.



Nope, because there aren't enough talented drivers out there who get started early enough, have the family money to push them through the lower series, happen to be sitting in the right place at the right time when an oppurtunity surfaces, or any other number of reasons. There are tons of talented drivers in the world...but very, very few who are able to make the stars align in such a way as to make it to the pinnacle of the sport...particularly in the U.S. where the system for getting top drivers into top rides is shotty at best.

The reason all the talent in the U.S. goes to NASCAR is because they DO have an established means of getting drivers all the way from dirt-track karts to Winston Cup AND there are people who are willing to foot the bill at the lower level, knowing that they aren't going to see any real return from their spending.

Somehow, you figure that because a driver chooses NASCAR, and might talk with an accent, that he/she must be an inferior talent...and you mostly figure wrong. The top drivers in NASCAR are just as talented as the top drivers in most any motorsport. You can't compare the whole of F1 to the whole of NASCAR, because there are tons more NASCAR drivers than F1, just like there are tons of drivers throughout Europe driving in lower forms of Formula and Touring series that don't have the talent to make it to F1 either, but the best in those series are the ones who move on to F1 because there's an established ladder system.

You're telling me that it's the same for you to pay cash out of pocket as it is to have a driver sponsor pay? That's just crazy. The teams have driver's bring sponsors because the sponsor wants to sponsor the driver rather than the team or the driver did the legwork to get the sponsor. For either reason it is a hell of a lot different than the driver paying out of pocket. The driver has to have some talents, driving or PR but probably at least a fair amount of both to secure sponsorship.

Of course both of these are different than having ferrari say thay'll give you $25 million for the pleasure of driving their car, but the two are just as different from each other.

I never said that the guys in NASCAR can't drive, I just said, perhaps in a somewhat non-complementary manner, that contact is a major part of NASCAR. I never said anything about the talent of drivers in NASCAR and I think you are awfully touchy on the matter to rant like you did when I didn't bring it up.

I think that there are many talented drivers in NASCAR, but there are also a lot of drivers that I wouldn't say are especially talented.

But, since you want to espouse the great skills of NASCAR drivers I'll indulge. If the NASCAR guys are all such great drivers then why do they regularly get their collective butts kicked by roadcourse specialists with little experience in the cars at both roadcourses and ovals. An example of this is Boris Said. The truth is that it just doesn't take as much talent, or at least not the same kind of talent, to run up front on ovals as it does to run up-front at road courses (assuming the top level of both disciplines). This has nothing to do with accents (I've been known to have one myself).

I think most drivers choose NASCAR either because that's all they've ever known, or (in the case of most of the very talented driver's in NASCAR) because that's where the money is in the US. If your an aspiring race car driver in the US it's probably not the best financial decision to go anywhere other than NASCAR.

NASCAR is fantastic at doing what benefits its owners, promoters, sponsors, and competitors by distilling all of motorsports down to what sells tickets and increases TV ratings. However, I think that this has come at the cost of what many "purist" fans really love about motorsports, passing and the importance of driver skill.

I don't intend to say that NASCAR is dumb or stupid, but I'm sure it will be taken that way.

Jason

Originally posted by jsaunde2
You're telling me that it's the same for you to pay cash out of pocket as it is to have a driver sponsor pay?

As a driver who has done both, yes. They are virtually the same when compared to actually being paid to drive. The $$ just comes from someone elses pocket.

I never said that the guys in NASCAR can't drive, I just said, perhaps in a somewhat non-complementary manner, that contact is a major part of NASCAR.

It's a huge part of World Challenge, and most Touring Car racing as well. It's the nature of the cars and close racing. I drive both open wheel and sedan race cars...there's ALWAYS more contact in sedans because it's safer. Any significant ontact in an open wheel car almost always equals at least one of the cars not being able to continue on and often leads to big time crashes when two spinning wheels come together.

I think that there are many talented drivers in NASCAR, but there are also a lot of drivers that I wouldn't say are especially talented.

Mostly because you are comparing 40+ driver Winston Cup fields to 16 car fields in what is considered the pinnacle of Motorsport. That doesn't mean that the top drivers in Winston Cup aren't of equal talent.

If the NASCAR guys are all such great drivers then why do they regularly get their collective butts kicked by roadcourse specialists with little experience in the cars at both roadcourses and ovals.

Experience, experience, experience. Do you really think Shumi could hop in a Winston Cup car twice a year and win at Daytona and Bristol? Nope, because no matter how talented of a drive you are, you still need practice and experience in a car and on a certain track to master it. Most Winston Cup drivers have been driving stock cars on ovals for their entire careers.

An example of this is Boris Said. The truth is that it just doesn't take as much talent, or at least not the same kind of talent, to run up front on ovals as it does to run up-front at road courses (assuming the top level of both disciplines).

It takes as much, just a different kind. Otherwise you are suggesting that Boris could easily hop in the seat at Daytona and win the race.

I don't intend to say that NASCAR is dumb or stupid, but I'm sure it will be taken that way.

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say. Most of the board DOES seem to feel that way, and most have some sort of snobbish attitude towards a form of Motorsport full of drivers that could easily get in their cars and pilot them around any track (oval or road course) much faster than they've ever been able to.

Originally posted by jsaunde2
You're telling me that it's the same for you to pay cash out of pocket as it is to have a driver sponsor pay? That's just crazy.

Welcome to the world of professional racing.

It's dog eat dog out there and the bigger wallet wins the seat. You can think it's crazy all you like, but that's the way it is. And yes, buying a ride with sponsor money is still buying a ride. It sure as hell isn't getting it on merit.

There was a time (too late in life as it turns out) I gave some very serious consideration to pursuing professional racing (and I don't mean rich gentleman racer - I mean making a living at it). I looked at it long and hard and read everything I could on the business of racing and driving. It's a whole lot different world out there. The late great Elio DeAngelis was the basically the first to outright buy a ride in F1. It hasn't been the same since.

There are a lot of better racers around besides a number of those with an F1 ride. But those drivers can't buy the seat.

And once again, I agree with everything Brian said.

Hey Brian, what's the chance you'll be going to ARRC?

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Chill their buddy. I wasn't patronizing just kidding around, hence the :). I thought your analysis was quite good. What about my comment struck you as patronizing? Honestly, that was the farthest thing from my mind.

No problem. Your two short replies misled some of us. Simple misunderstanding.

I choose to analyze video and photos to reconstruct, support, and explain my arguments to the rest of us that weren't in JPM's Williams or Rubens' Ferrari.

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
I also seriously doubt Montoya ever sat down and analyzed this specific incident frame by frame...

I agree with you. In-depth review isn't necessary for the driver because he was there and he immediately knew how it happened.

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
As a driver who has done both, yes. They are virtually the same when compared to actually being paid to drive. The $$ just comes from someone elses pocket.

To me that still seems to be a pretty big difference to me. If you bring a sponsor on board at least you have to convince someone you're worth a sh*t. I definitely understand that it's not the same as being paid to drive by a race team because you're the best talent available, but you've got to have some pretty good talent to get up to F1 and convince someone to put up a few million so you can drive for a weekend.

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
It's a huge part of World Challenge, and most Touring Car racing as well. It's the nature of the cars and close racing. I drive both open wheel and sedan race cars...there's ALWAYS more contact in sedans because it's safer. Any significant ontact in an open wheel car almost always equals at least one of the cars not being able to continue on and often leads to big time crashes when two spinning wheels come together..

That was essentially my initial point, drivers in F1 are generally not punting other people off track because there is a huge chance of them being taken out as well. A number of people had posted on the board bashing JPM and either saying outright or implying that he intentionally drove RB off the track and I was responding to that.

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Mostly because you are comparing 40+ driver Winston Cup fields to 16 car fields in what is considered the pinnacle of Motorsport. That doesn't mean that the top drivers in Winston Cup aren't of equal talent.

Once again, I'm not saying that there aren't a few great drivers in NASCAR. However, I will say that it seems to me that a less than great driver can win NASCAR races and that doesn't seem to be the case in F1.

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Experience, experience, experience. Do you really think Shumi could hop in a Winston Cup car twice a year and win at Daytona and Bristol? Nope, because no matter how talented of a drive you are, you still need practice and experience in a car and on a certain track to master it. Most Winston Cup drivers have been driving stock cars on ovals for their entire careers.

I don't think MS could do that, but other roadracers are starting to do impressive things, like Boris Said and Ron Fellows at sonoma this year. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/motorsports/news/2003/06/20/sonoma_qualifying_ap/
Two guys with little experience in the cars qualifying 1 and 3. Granted it's a roadcourse but a number of Cup drivers have significant roadracing experience and more experience in the cars.

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say. Most of the board DOES seem to feel that way, and most have some sort of snobbish attitude towards a form of Motorsport full of drivers that could easily get in their cars and pilot them around any track (oval or road course) much faster than they've ever been able to.

I know that most people on this board probably dislike NASCAR, I do myself and I know that probably colors my opinions of NASCAR drivers. I think the "snobbish attitude" comes from the fact that NASCAR is really just pretty damn boring until someone crashes. I, like many others, just find it much more interesting to watch cars go in squiggly circles rather than plain ones. I also think any negative opinions of NASCAR drivers probably stem from feelings of social rather than skill superiority, the accent issue you mentioned earlier, or from a feeling that the drievr "sold-out" to a less pure form of racing. Anyway, a lot of people don't like oval racing and a lost of the people who do like oval racing don't like roadracing. Some people like coke and some like pepsi. There's nothing we can do to change that, other than to make them the same thing,in which case everyone loses out.

Jason

Originally posted by Geo31
Welcome to the world of professional racing.

It's dog eat dog out there and the bigger wallet wins the seat. You can think it's crazy all you like, but that's the way it is. And yes, buying a ride with sponsor money is still buying a ride. It sure as hell isn't getting it on merit.

Like I said above, it takes something to get someone else to pay for you to drive a race car. I'm also guessing that the guys bringing sponsor money to F1 teams are keeping some for themselves to pay rent etc. So, although the team isn't paying them, someone is paying them to drive.

Also, just because someone pays to drive doesn't mean that they aren't a great driver. That's essentially the same as saying that a driver sucks because he is in NASCAR. Maybe it means the driver isn't as good as MS, but does it mean he's worse than JV?

ANyway, back to the original question, who's "buying" their ride in F1?

Jason

Originally posted by jsaunde2
Like I said above, it takes something to get someone else to pay for you to drive a race car. I'm also guessing that the guys bringing sponsor money to F1 teams are keeping some for themselves to pay rent etc. So, although the team isn't paying them, someone is paying them to drive.

In my experience, the sponsor always wants to send the check straight to the team. The driver doesn't normally see any of the $$ if the sponsor is footing the bill for his ride...from SCCA racing to the upper levels of Motorsport. A driver usually brings the sponsor, but the sponsor pays the team.

It's also been my experience that driving skill is on down the line in levels of importance for obtaining a sponsor. It often has more to do with connections, politics, the marketability of the driver, or luck...rarely does a driver obtain a sponsor willing to foot the bill for the season simply because the driver is an amazing talent...hence the reason so few of America's greatest drivers actually end up with a shot at making it in the top levels of their sport (Winston Cup, F1, CART, etc). In many cases, the drivers who market themselves the best or have the best connections make it places that the most talented drivers who may not have the same connections don't. That's the truth about racing.

"The top drivers in NASCAR are just as talented as the top drivers in most any motorsport."

I take issue with that. Of course, Earnhardt was quite talented, and he actually participated in other forms of racing besides the mindless, monotonous oval type.

2 turns is less than thrilling to watch, and considering that you only have to know how to take those 2 turns I believe it's not as intellectually demanding as other forms of racing.

If NASCAR is every bit the equal of the open wheeled series, why don't drivers routinely migrate from NASCAR to F1? The reason is because NASCAR cultivates a completely different skill set - it's more like football, if F1 was soccer. There's contact in both but the motivations are different.

I still refuse to watch NASCAR, and others feel the same... I tend to think the people who do watch it enjoy it purely on the visceral level of watching cars crash, which is the completely wrong reason to enjoy motorsports.

Originally posted by stjobs
I still refuse to watch NASCAR, and others feel the same... I tend to think the people who do watch it enjoy it purely on the visceral level of watching cars crash, which is the completely wrong reason to enjoy motorsports.

i completely agree... i was searching online for fantasy motorsports pages, and one of the first links i stumbled on was a NASCAR fantasy racing group named "road courses suck"

i think that speaks a world about the average NASCAR fan... they dont appreciate the actual skill of driving a race car, but rather enjoy watching the DNFs (crashes, fires, etc)

Ha...how hypocritical is it then to say that "ovals suck"?!?!?

How many ovals have you driven at over 200 mph? How many sweeping turns have you taken on the edge of out-of-control at 180+ mph in a 3400 pound car? How many passes have you made at 200 mph just 6 inches from another car? How many times have you experienced the buffeting behind a truck on the highway...now imagine that multiplied times 10 and at 150+ mph while trying to go around a turn.

Seems like many here are just as ignorant and have just as many misunderstandings about oval racing as the "road courses suck" crowd does.

You don't have to like it, but at least take the time to understand what is involved and just how skilled the drivers are. I don't personally enjoy racing on ovals, but I've done it enough to know it's not as easy as you think it is.

i never claimed to be able to have done any of those things, but to limit yourself to just ovals is ignorant...

to stay on topic and relevant to your comment, Indy has a huge sweeping turn followed by a straightaway and plenty of times i saw cars drafting at 200+ mph on that track...

its not that i dont appreciate the skill and effort it takes to do such a pass, I DO, because F1 has turns like those... i choose not to watch a sport, though, consisting solely of turns like that... it isnt ignorant to say oval courses suck, they do... they lack variety, the negotiation of different turns with elevation changes, they are mundane and repetitive...

if F1 introduced an oval course, i would not be unhappy, ive always said it would be interesting to see a race like that... but NASCAR is boring because thats 90% of what they do, and when they DO do a road course, half the regular drivers have people fill in for them...

again just my opinion... when it comes to women, cars, food, and racing tracks, variety is the spice of life

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Ha...how hypocritical is it then to say that "ovals suck"?!?!?

I don't think anyone said that. All most people have said is that they think oval races are boring to watch. It doesn't matter how exciting it is to do, it's not very exciting to watch.

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Seems like many here are just as ignorant and have just as many misunderstandings about oval racing as the "road courses suck" crowd does.

Nobody has said that it doesn't take any skill to drive ovals, just that it doesn't appear to take as much skill as roadracing. You really seem to be apt to jump to the conclusion that everyone is "ignorant" just because they don't like NASCAR and/or roadracing. Maybe you don't intend it but it is generally percieved as quite rude and derogatory to call people ignorant and is therefore likely to illicit a backlash rather than understanding.

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
You don't have to like it, but at least take the time to understand what is involved and just how skilled the drivers are. I don't personally enjoy racing on ovals, but I've done it enough to know it's not as easy as you think it is.

So are you basically agreeing that it is boring when compared to roadracing?

Jason

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
How many ovals have you driven at over 200 mph?

Well I haven't driven one at 200 mph, but I've driven through the two kinks on the front straight of Texas Motor Speedway. I swear the seat fabric is still scrunched from my butt pucker.

I came back from that with a new respect for NASCAR drivers (not that I exactly lacked that). I couldn't imagine going through those at 200 mph. Of course, there is less kink if you are running the full oval, but it sure makes my eyes pop out.

Please, by all means, show me where I posted some misunderstandings about oval racing, or mistruths. I'm actually fairly knowledgeable about it, but I choose not to watch it. It has nothing to do with ignorance.

"Ha...how hypocritical is it then to say that "ovals suck"?!?!?"

Please read my post again. I never said ovals suck - it's just not as exciting to watch as a road course. You seem to feel the same since you don't watch NASCAR either.

Originally posted by jsaunde2
Like I said above, it takes something to get someone else to pay for you to drive a race car.

Yes, it does. But not necessarily driving skill. I'm afraid you have a common perception that has little to do with reality.

Originally posted by jsaunde2
ANyway, back to the original question, who's "buying" their ride in F1?

Well, for starters, it's strongly rumored that the second Jaguar seat will be going to someone brigging a bigger contribution.

Probably (since none of us will every really know):

Both Minardi seats
At least one Jordon seat
Probably one of the Sauber seats

There's probably more, mostly in partial sponsorship. Hell, even the test drivers for a number of teams have to bring some decent sponsorship.

of course ovals are hard, if they werent every guy with a chevy pickup that has a sticker of a kid pissing on a Ford emblem and a fu manchu would get behind the wheel of a monte carlo and race

10-03-2003, i wrote of "speculation"....

Originally posted by Grd4Spd
...JPM has moved to Mclaren. :(

doubters say...

Originally posted by fredo
those are some bold statements.... have some links to back them up? :confused:

Originally posted by Grd4Spd
"i have some VERY close F1 insider sources, so i cant back it up offically other than to say its happening"

Originally posted by stjobs
You actually think we will believe this coming from a guy with 23 posts?

Originally posted by Geo31
Unless your "inside sources" are Jean Todt, Ron Dennis, Frank Williams, and their lawyers, your sources don't mean squat.....That stuff you posted was pure speculation. It was posted on Autosport.com but it was pretty clear it was just speculation that was going around the paddock.


ahhh....doubters no longer doubt, speculate no mas....my dear BMW fans...


Monday, 17 November, 2003, 11:09 GMT

McLaren grab Montoya


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39578000/jpg/_39578349_jpm203.jpg


Juan Pablo Montoya will switch to the McLaren team from Williams for the 2005 Formula One season.
McLaren boss Ron Dennis said: "The opportunity to sign a talent like Juan Pablo was too good to miss."

The move is likely to spell the end of David Coulthard's McLaren career - Montoya is expected to partner Finn Kimi Raikkonen.

Dennis added: "There is already a considerable amount of anticipation within our team about 2005."

A statement from McLaren said the team would announce its full 2005 line-up at a later date, although Raikkonen is considered all but certain to stay on.

Coulthard's manager Martin Brundle told this website the Scot was simply concentrating on next season.

"It's not great news for David, but 2005 is a long way off and many things can happen in that time," said Brundle.

CAREER DETAILS - MONTOYA
1998: Formula 3000 champion
1999: Cart champion
2000: Indianapolis 500 winner
2001: Moves to F1, takes first win in Italy
2002: Third in championship, seven pole positions
2003: Third overall, two wins


"We have a contractual position moving forward with McLaren and David is just focusing on 2004."

A partnership of Raikkonen and Montoya would give McLaren arguably the most exciting driver line-up in F1 as they attempt to end Ferrari's domination of the sport.

McLaren's attempt to sign Montoya was revealed by the BBC Sport website in July.

The team initially wanted to take him for 2004, for which he was already contracted to Williams, but had to give up that idea when Williams insisted he stay on.

Montoya, who finished third in the world championship behind Michael Schumacher and Raikkonen this year, said: "This is a great opportunity for me and I'm really looking forward to the first time I will be able to drive one of McLaren's cars.

"To join them is an amazing challenge and experience which I plan to fully enjoy.

"However, my short-term aim is to concentrate 100% on winning the 2004 world championship."

Montoya will attempt to do that at BMW Williams, in what could be a difficult year for the team.

His departure to McLaren puts Williams and their engine partner BMW in a difficult position.

That is because Montoya will be able to tell his new employer, whose engine partner is BMW's bitter rival Mercedes-Benz, many of Williams' latest secrets.


keep tuned to your favorite F1 site for more silly season antics!

regards,
terry

Wow...you repeated the rumors that have been running around the internet all season...

on 10/3 Grd4Spd said


Originally posted by Grd4Spd
....and yes, the Canadian GP is on and the French GP is off.

regards,
terry



along with the other "Predictions" (facts) beaming from Grd4Spd's Crystal Balls.....looks like another has come to term..... :D


The 2004 French Grand Prix has been axed due to financial problems. The event at Magny Cours, Nevers, was due to take place on July 11th.


http://www.f1central.net/newsphotos/july/a/rsch070603.jpg


Following a meeting of the Nievre regional council today its President, Marcel Charmant, delivered the news to regional media representatives in Nevers.

The regional council of Nievre is the majority shareholder in the company which owns the technically demanding Magny Cours circuit.

Reporst suggest that the announcement has come as a result of the regional council failing to pay Bernie Ecclestone's Formula One Management company for organising the 2003 French Grand Prix.

"It is not possible to give Bernie Ecclestone the guarantees he requires for the financing of a race in 2004," Charmant told reporters.

The French Grand Prix was included on the 2004 calendar with only provisional status. It remains to be seen if there is a way back onto the 2004 tour for France...


regards,
terry