hi; has anyone heared of "jon in dc" he is selling kits for the m70 claiming gains of 500hp. with no engine mods!
all the sc modified cars I have looked at have modifyied the motor.

Look on Roadfly. John is a regular over there. One of his threads: Supercharger Kit Completed - Dyno Results Here... (http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/bmw/bmw-8-series-e31/9151282-7.html)

wow can i haz?

how much is it?

John has large experience with SC's and TT's for our cars.

my concern is the claims of unmodified motor,
do you have to remap the ecu? or will the wokke chip set be compatable?

I believe custom software is involved and of course fuel prep is changed to keep up with the forced induction, Injectors etc...

Dave, look at the first car of this site:

http://www.clube31.nl/clubautos

what do you see?

It´s Dicks car and I already sent him a mail weather he could help you... :)

^^^Wow, that's a real nice looking setup. Very clean.

Huge sc's, The belts are far too long, Must of been a lot of trial and error to get them to stay on track at high rpm's, Anyone know the Hp?
Below is how a SC is suppose to look, Imo! You don't see nothing... Unless you look below! It's great to finally have options on both sides of the pond no doubt, I'm just a real fan of the element of surprise/A real clean job too.

The target of Dick's tuner is 450 bhp / 700 Nm (wheel power), but I'm not sure they reached it already - last numbers I saw were rather disappointing. In a later stage they want to increase that number. But there have been a lot of complications in the one and a half year they have been working on the car - frequent oil leaks, water leaks, mindboggling fuel consumption, component failures,... Trial and error indeed. In the end it'll probably work just fine, but I don't want to know the total project costs :D...

I wish Dick (and his tuner Rick) all the best with their setup, but personally I would take a completely different approach. This is far from optimal and very prone to failures.

For those who are member at 8er.org, Dick frequently posts in Any of the V12 supercharger projects complete? (http://8er.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6664). Lots of pictures.

I remember when they first started, The belts were breaking left and right, I wish they didn't post that info and iirc, The hp was approximately 380 but it's not easy work and it takes trial and error and resources to achieve such a goal, I wish them good luck on it as well.

I'm leaving for DC on Thursday to pick up my kit from John.

A base line 300hp V12 has been dynoed to 390+rear wheel hp. depending on how you would calculate the drive train loss we are looking at 450 to 500hp.
John claims 450hp, if you ask me that might be a bit modest

I know 3 ways of calculating this.

-simple fixed loss 390+60hp = 450hp
-20% loss 390/0.8 =487,5hp (used for automatic transmission)
-add 10 to rwhp and add 12% 400/0.88 = 454,5hp (usually used for manual transmission)

My car has different cams and would probably put out closer to 500, maybe even more (I have 354hp "stock").
I hope to see 410-430 rear wheel hp on my car.

As for mapping, yes you need a new ecu chip, and you probably cant use the Wokke chip as timing and a/f mix will be different.
Due to my cams I need a custom chip from John.
Fuel injectors also needs to be replaced with bigger ones.

My install will be documented at a high level and I will make a post here when it is complete.

http://www.autotraderuae.com/auto/index.php?carnews=1104
I have posted this link on both forums in the past with very little responce.
(maybe people think I am biased)
ALBREX SUPERCHARGERS ( Conrad Gruber) helped develope the koenig specials supercharged ferrari's 1000hp.
he also developed the m70 supercharged ks8.
in an artical I have read but can't find at the moment,
He has said internal modifications have to be made to the motor when fitting a Albrex sc. so maybe mods have to be made only if fitting Albrex sc's ?
no one wants to know the m70 motor any more. My 645ci leaves the 850 in the distant past. It's only 85hp more and feels like 200 more horses.

I think conrad gruber is the only man to do the job. A group buy for the kit from him is the only way to go. imo
http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r381/koenig_ks8/0022-1.jpg

A comment on the 645i feeling of yours.
I had a ride in my friends 97 540ia and that felt quicker than my 1990 850ia, despite my car having 354hp and his about 280hp.
The difference is in the gearbox, his newer steptronic car is locked in gear almost imediately, while my old 4-speed is not and wastes alot of power in the torque converter.
So his car not only feels quicker, it probably is quicker.
Same with your 645. there are 15 years in gearbox development between tse cars and I think you will find that this is whre all the difference in power is.

I do believe that a manual 850 is a whole different experience than an auto, but I have never tried one so I cant tell.

As for engine work.
the 5.0L M70 is a blueprint for F/I, with an astounding low 8.8:1 compression ratio it is practically factory prepped for F/I.
The M73 and S70 however sports a higher compression ratio and would need to have that lowered prior to F/I.
Also the M70 has machined cranck, pistons and cams, not casted, so they are also of a quality that can handle F/I well.

What Koenig did I don't know, maybe they installed new pistons to lower the compression ratio even more, or just fitted new piston rings, perhaps they did som head work, changed cams, crank or bearings.
Just pure speculations on my part.

With the modest pressured of most kits (less than 10psi) the stock M70 is a perfect candidate as it requires no internal work, due to the high quality parts used. New injectors and a re-map will give you up to 500hp.
You mention 1000hp, and that can also be done, but then you require to do some internal work.
New bearings, new pistons, lower compression ratio and head work, probably an all new engine management system too.
Then offcourse you need a brand new drivetrain as the stock wont cope with 1000hp.

I have faith in Johns system, and I have been in close contact with him for over a year now, I was not aware that Koenig still could deliver kit's as there are virtually no mods for the e31 on the marked anymore.

I also doubt that anyone could match Johns price.

And a small comment to the Dutch kit.
I really hope they can get it to work, but I doubt they will get 700nm out of it, I expect to get around 600nm with Johns kit.
The 450hp I'm sure they will get in the end.

Replace the cluthes in your gear box when time permits and get a Hi stall converter when installing your SC, A equally HP'd manual will not be able to keep up.

Replace the cluthes in your gear box when time permits and get a Hi stall converter when installing your SC, A equally HP'd manual will not be able to keep up.

I will try with the stock setup, if I get problems, I'll look into mods for the auto box or a manual conversion.
Might need to change my rear diff as it is 3.45:1 after Hartge tinkered with it.

A 3:45 diff will be quite easy to get rid of!

A 3:45 diff will be quite easy to get rid of!

Yup! 3:45 would be ideal for my car! :naughty

Can't wait till this kit comes out. Beautiful Car+Fast= Man's Dream.

How much does jons kit cost?

...Real men go Twin Turbo! [525HP on a stock M70]

:) :) :)

I also looked at a Supercharger kit, but with a DINAN 8 sitting close by, turbo is how it's going to be....

Right on... TT is the way to go... Proven technology already.....No surprises....

...Real men go Twin Turbo! [525HP on a stock M70]

:) :) :)

I also looked at a Supercharger kit, but with a DINAN 8 sitting close by, turbo is how it's going to be....

TT has my vote for obvious reasons..........lol..

I have to speak up for John's SC kit. If projections are as expected, the price of a TT kit will be almost double the cost. So, "bang for the buck" goes to John. And I trust him better than myself at this point!

I believe 8hary8 has a friend in Germany with a Albrex motor 500+hp.
John in dc is a sucsessfull tuner and I wish both partys best of luck with there projects.
The more sucsessfull supercharger kits the better.
I am not sure if the KS information below is for a Albrex motor or for a KS motor,
I have recently aquired a body part for my car from KS, the manufacturer of the part was not KS . the work was subcontracted out.
KOENIG super charger engine for 850 CSi
up to 367 kW / 500 HP / 650 NM, 0 - 100 = 4,9 sec., top speed up to 310 km/h super charger power, high performance super charger, changed engine-management (elektronic), intercooler, incl. installation and test bench runing on request

KOENIG sport rear axle, better acceleration,
12 % shorter gear ratio, V/max. ca. 275 - 285 km/h (with super charger engine ca. 300 km/h)
on request
installation on request
driving performance depends on gear ratio

Yes right, Hans has a Albrex proved over 10.000s of miles in the meantime, got new belt an charger last year but drives a lot.

belt lenght: better idea where to mount the "blower"

all sc versions I know have this prob

narurally TTs cannot have this prob, but Johns headers cannot be the optimum - Engl headers and TT would be the best solution, but thats theorie

:D ...and driving a KS8 SC must be priceless - when it´s got the right color...:lol

but Johns headers cannot be the optimumExhaust headers are less important in a supercharger setup than with a normal aspirated or turbocharged engine.

Here is a picture of the first SC kit equipped 850 6sp taken on May 23rd at John's wrenchfest in DC. This one was installed by John.

http://www.upload.mn/view/ss807rf8oslku0nr4ve3.jpghttp://www.upload.mn/view/ss807rf8oslku0nr4ve3.jpghttp://www.upload.mn/view/ss807rf8oslku0nr4ve3.jpg

I had a ride with John driving - awesome and quite a difference from stock!

I am not sure where John is at regarding the pricing, but I think it's in the $8k range.

All info on RF as previous poster pointed out.

First to Dave.
you mention a Koenig SC kit for the CSI.
he S70 and M70 has a completely different compression ratio, the M70 has 8.8:1 and the CSI has 10:1 so this engine would require som internal work to charge with a decent pressure.
stock S70 I would not charge more than 5psi.


As for my 3.45 diff, it' not an LSD so may not be so easy to get rid of afterall.
I have looked at my gear ratio as it is the same as the 5.0 Alpina.
Gives me a theoretical top speed between 290 and 300km/h at the rev limiter in 4th gear.
Should be fast enough..... my only worry is that it may be a handfull to drive at normal speeds, but I guess I will find out in a short time.

And Cantbl8 is right, that is close to where Johns kit is priced.
It's far less than an Ess kit is for my M3.

And I think john is working on some new intake manifolds too.
However the Engl with 12 throttlebodies i just..... well porn :)

First to Dave.
you mention a Koenig SC kit for the CSI.
he S70 and M70 has a completely different compression ratio, the M70 has 8.8:1 and the CSI has 10:1 so this engine would require som internal work to charge with a decent pressure.
stock S70 I would not charge more than 5psi.


As for my 3.45 diff, it' not an LSD so may not be so easy to get rid of afterall.
I have looked at my gear ratio as it is the same as the 5.0 Alpina.
Gives me a theoretical top speed between 290 and 300km/h at the rev limiter in 4th gear.
Should be fast enough..... my only worry is that it may be a handfull to drive at normal speeds, but I guess I will find out in a short time.

And Cantbl8 is right, that is close to where Johns kit is priced.
It's far less than an Ess kit is for my M3.

And I think john is working on some new intake manifolds too.
However the Engl with 12 throttlebodies i just..... well porn :)


As far as I can remember it's unlikely you'll get close to that speed in Norway ;) Are the highway speeds still 90kph along E39? :D

IMHO both systems have their pros and cons..........MY opinion on the downside of both is the belt drive system upkeep/alignment on the SC setup and the extra engine bay heat generated by the TT setup........I will say that even with my daily driven 600 Hp setup you can drive it like a normal slushbox all day without even noticing the monster underneath.........its VERY VERY easy to live with. So much so that your granny could drive it and never notice unless she puts her foot in it and the boost comes on, then its space shuttle time AND the power comes on very progessively and not violent at all...........unless you WANT it that way of course........

As far as I can remember it's unlikely you'll get close to that speed in Norway ;) Are the highway speeds still 90kph along E39? :D

Yes they are still 90km/h, but on the east side of the country on E18 it's a staggering 100km/h (to be read with a strong ironic tone).

Luckily Germany is not that far away with it's no-speedlimit autobahn :buttrock

IMHO both systems have their pros and cons..........MY opinion on the downside of both is the belt drive system upkeep/alignment on the SC setup and the extra engine bay heat generated by the TT setup........



Another downside with the TT is the cramped quarters in the vicinity of the exhaust manifold.

As far as the SC belt drive and allignment - that will not be a problem. The SC mount is a very solid metal plate.

A plus with the SC is that it can be easily unbolted and reverted to stock such as when selling the 8er. Not so easily with the TT. Not that you might ever want to.



Yes right, Hans has a Albrex proved over 10.000s of miles in the meantime, got new belt an charger last year but drives a lot.

belt lenght: better idea where to mount the "blower"

all sc versions I know have this prob

narurally TTs cannot have this prob, but Johns headers cannot be the optimum - Engl headers and TT would be the best solution, but thats theorie

:D ...and driving a KS8 SC must be priceless - when it´s got the right color...



Iirc, John's SC has a separate belt - not a lenghtened serpentine.

Regarding 'headers' - not much help with M70 - discussed in other threads - the exhaust ports are so ugly. Exhaust flow not as important with SC as it is with TT (to properly feed the turbos).

10k mi is not much driving, but I guess that's Europe. I put about 35-40k mi on my cars here in the states.

As far as the TT - there should be a better place to place the turbos. :D

Iirc, John's SC has a separate belt - not a lenghtened serpentine.


10k mi is not much driving, but I guess that's Europe. I put about 35-40k mi on my cars here in the states.



all Albrex I know have a seperate belt

10.000s of miles means not 10.000 miles, and 35-40k mi is what Hans and me are driving too, with all of our cars - in some months! :stickoutt


Iirc, John's SC


thought he has a TT?

Regarding 'headers' - not much help with M70 - discussed in other threads - the exhaust ports are so ugly. Exhaust flow not as important with SC as it is with TT (to properly feed the turbos).


As far as the TT - there should be a better place to place the turbos. :D

sure it would help and as far as we don´t have a wide engine bay there will always be problems to put such systems in our 8s

Hehe - my two cars don't even do 5000 miles a year.
I think my 850 did 1000-1500 miles last year (due to technical issues though).
So far I have driven my 850 18.000km since I bought her in 2006, just over 11.000miles
She has almost 145.000km on the clock, less than 90.000 miles, not bad for a 1990 model.

But then again I'm out of the country half the year working.
And my 8 is only out of the garage from April to October, I'm lucky to get 3 months a year to use her.

But back to the SC, I will post my results her in a few weeks when the job is done.

Oh. Harry. John has a TT, but he has also developed a SC kit.
Last time I spoke to him he had about 15 kits ready for sale.

Unfortunately, nothing yet for the M73. Bummer!

That'w why you need one M70 and one M73 :-)

That'w why you need one M70 and one M73



Or rather as many M70 6 speeds as you can find...

Or rather as many M70 6 speeds as you can find...


Yup! 6 speed is being considered at the moment. :buttrock

Hands off fred!!!

all Albrex I know have a seperate belt

10.000s of miles means not 10.000 miles, and 35-40k mi is what Hans and me are driving too, with all of our cars - in some months! :stickoutt




thought he has a TT?



sure it would help and as far as we don´t have a wide engine bay there will always be problems to put such systems in our 8s

Seperate belt is the only way to go or the supercharger is too far back to mount it. Additionally, the belt width is insufficient to transmit the extra power required to run the supercharger. It needs an 8 rib belt on its own.


See here for explanation.

BELT DRIVE DESIGN.

The Quest for 600 bhp - Part 7 - "Belt Drive System" (http://www.clube31.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4581)

I have now finalized the design for both the drives for the supercharger and the modified air conditioning/water pump drives.

I have chosen what would, at first, appear to be the obvious choice, and that is the ISO 9982 PK belt drive system almost exclusively used throughout the motor industry recently for belt driven power transmission. This was not however an automatic choice as the benefits of other drive systems, i.e. toothed and herringbone belts had some other advantages but overall the PK system appears to be the best choice due to its quietness of operation, strength, efficiency of around 98%, (losing only 2% to heat and sound,) and widespread availability.

The familiar PK multi-rib belt, used for serpentine belt drives does however have a number of design guidelines and these are covered in the ISO standards 9982 for the system, so my designs had to accommodate these limitations within it’s parameters and take recommendations for the system seriously as the designers of it are far more knowledgeable than this mere DIY mechanic here!

(PK belt specifications are a multi rib belt with a 40°± 0.5 ° “V”, 3.56 mm tooth pitch, 0.25 mm min tooth tip radius and 0.50 mm max valley base radius.
A belt with a designation of 6 PK 1165 would be a PK belt, 6 ribs wide and 1165 mm long.)

Some of the basic “guidelines” concerning belt speed, alignment and bend radius.

Speed. High belt speeds promote belt “orbiting”, an undesirable effect of belt mass centrifuging out in an attempt to become a circle which reduces belt wrap and control. The maximum recommended linear belt speed is 55 m/sec and my design has an estimated speed of 56 m/sec at the engine rpm threshold, a minimal overspeed situation at an engine rpm rarely encountered and never sustained for more than a fraction of a second during upshifts.

Max Belt Speed = Crank Pulley Ø x Π x Max Engine rpm/60

Alignment. I took extreme care to make sure that pulley alignment was as accurate as possible (by dowelling mountings etc,) to eliminate the chance of belt climb and detachment at worst or excessive belt heat and wear at best. As an additional safety feature, I have integrated side shoulders on to the supercharger tensioner pulley design.

Radius. There are a number of issues and rules applicable to pulley diameters. Essentially, the minimum drive/driven pulley Ø allowable is 50 mm, and for idlers, it is 65 mm when mounted outside the belt and 38 mm when mounted inside, with a minimum idler width of (belt width + 2x pitch.)

Surprisingly, it is within design parameters to use a flat pulley idler on the toothed side of the belt, although in the majority of cases where an internal idler is used, it will also be ribbed.

Recommendations are as follows,

As a general rule, a PK belt will transmit 10 bhp per rib on a 4.5 – 6.0 mm thick belt as used on automobiles.
As the pulley diameter decreases, the belt temperature, noise, wear and pulley speed will increase, so the use of a larger diameter pulley is recommended as the only opportunity for the belt to shed heat is when travelling between pulleys.

Larger diameter pulleys increase traction surface area and power transmission, and therefore allow the use of narrower belts. I therefore selected my supercharger drive ratio derived from the blower compressor maps and selected 8 rib pulleys sized towards the maximum end of available combinations whilst still leaving me the flexibility to alter the drive ratio if the theory did not match the results achieved. Without going into the full formula, the supercharger drive power requirements can be calculated by:

Drive Power Req = Boost x Airflow x 98% (belt efficiency)
X Adiabatic Efficiency of supercharger.

As there is a vast selection of 4 rib drive belts off-the-shelf, I will be using two, 4 rib belts side by side as should a belt fail, a single 4 rib would be sufficient to continue driving whereas the loss of a single 8 rib may well significantly hamper such progress.

Increasing belt “wrap”, the angle at which the belt is in contact with the pulley, greatly increases power transmission and the use of idlers, significantly reduces belt “orbiting”. Idlers should always, where possible, be placed on the slack run of the belt and not on the power run between the crank pulley and load.

Idlers mounted on the outside of the belt will increase wrap angles whereas internally mounted idlers will decrease it. Generally an internal idler is used to slightly deflect the route of the belt rather than tension it.

As belt wrap on idlers increases, the load and temperature increases rapidly, so for wraps in excess of 90° I recommend an aluminium pulley is fitted, and for wraps over 180°, I feel it is essential. This is why on my design I have manufactured all new, lightweight 6082 grade aluminium “Magnum” pulleys and idlers and then anodised those to surface harden them. I selected not to use steel pulleys due to the parasitic loss driving them. I was especially keen to replace the stock plastic pulleys/idlers anyway as they are very prone to failure on BMW’s and especially the V12’s, V8’s and M50/52/54 series engines with catastrophic results.

With my supercharger belt running at maximum recommended speed, I manufactured the largest tensioner/idler that could practically be fitted, also in 6082, to reduce bearing rotational speed and allowing the use of a replaceable, high speed/high load bearing assembly and designed it with an eccentric adjustment system, side ramp guides and a large cooling surface area to discharge heat from the belt and pulley.

As the mounting for the supercharger relocates the air conditioning compressor mount away from the engine, I milled the inner face of the A/C mount to recoup some of this displacement back and then reduced the diameter of the idler by replacing the plastic one with my own smaller diameter 6082 aluminium one and, manufacturing a new reduced diameter aluminium water pump pulley to increase coolant flow 10%, managing to retain the use of a stock A/C drive belt and hydraulic tensioner. Also integrated within my design is that with my supercharger drive pulley/tensioner arrangement, in the unlikely event of a supercharger belt failure, a stock E31 V12 BMW A/C belt can be fitted to temporarily, (it’s only 5 ribs wide) carry out a quick repair. (One belt fits all!).

When the electronic water pump is installed it will be a simple task to re-route the belt to drive the A/C only, remove the water pump pulley and impellor, and fit a shorter belt.

The remaining belt drive, that for the alternator and power steering is still under development but will also be using my “Magnum” idler as it is identical to the A/C idler arrangement (but mounted upside down), will have an underdrive aluminium pulley on the power steering and an OAP (Overrunning Alternator Pulley) manufactured by myself and fitted to the alternator.

This will increase alternator output whilst decreasing parasitic loss at the same time, greatly reducing belt loads both shock and drive, (increasing belt life), and also crankshaft loads. A great win-win solution. As these do not affect the supercharger install, they are on an “as time allows” schedule, and I have NO spare time right now.

For the 2 months I have had my car, I drove to my reserve base at Ft Devens, MA from Union, NJ 3 times. Then I drove all over PA east and west and went down to Wildwood at the southern tip of NJ and I've put 5,000 miles on her hah!

For the 2 months I have had my car, I drove to my reserve base at Ft Devens, MA from Union, NJ 3 times. Then I drove all over PA east and west and went down to Wildwood at the southern tip of NJ and I've put 5,000 miles on her hah!

Congratulations.

What on earth has that got to do with supercharger belt drives? :95

Am I missing something here?

Congratulations.

What on earth has that got to do with supercharger belt drives? :95

Am I missing something here?
now now 8tech; he's one of the missled with the steering wheel on the wrong side of the car. show a little simpathy.
by the way have you got the supercharged car on the road?
if yes will it + you be at Gaydon?

I have arrived.
Sitting in my hotel room waiting for John to pick me up.
Headig over to his place to check out the kit and hand him one of my DME's so he can figure out how to correct for my Hartge camshafts.

Will keep you posted.

Feel like a kid on christmas at the moment :)

Sounds like fun! Have a good time Egil and keep us posted please...

now now 8tech; he's one of the missled with the steering wheel on the wrong side of the car. show a little simpathy.
by the way have you got the supercharged car on the road?
if yes will it + you be at Gaydon?

Yes, the car and myself will be at Gaydon. I will be leaving the front panel off so the installation can be seen otherwise you would have to crawl under it to see anything.

See you there.

So I have checked out the kit and it looks very good.
No doubt he has spendt a lot of time on this.
John has made all the brackets, ducting and molds himself, so it has been a time consuming job, and even though development costs have been kept as low as possible it has cost a fair bit to develop.

Some small technical details.
Talking to John the system is providing about 7,5psi of boost, which is the max this SC can deliver acording to warranty, however one can fit a bigger pully and John has 7,5% and 15% "over speed" pullies made for testing, however that voids the SC's warranty.

As for expected gain, John estimates that I would get +/- 400hp on my rear wheels with my camshafts.
More if I decide to overspeed the SC, but I think I will keep that as a possible future upgrade.

Other than that I have a long walk in the US Capitol today and my feet hurt, but I have seen most of the major sights in DC.
John has put together a small e31 meeting at his place tomorrow, and by the sound of it there will be about 5-6 owners showing up, one is the red 850 with Johns kit installed, and maybe the 860 will show up too.
Looking forward to that.

Looking forward to that.

Only you? :D

Some sc-vids till then...

http://www.youtube.com/user/850maniak

A further update.

I have the kit in my hotel room, and there are a lot more parts than I had expected, John says he can install a kit in 12 hours, and expect me to use 4-5 days, this because I will have questions and due to the time difference an answer will take some time to get.

I also had a ride in the red charged manual 850 and she is quick, not as brutal as I had thought but she did fly throug the revs very fast.
An unofficial timing places the 0-60 time around 5 sec for the manual, so pretty quick.

Since my car is an auto I really could not tell how my car will act.
There was also some "strage" sounds.
The SC makes this turbine like sound and when driving the car almost sounded like a muffled jet plane. there is also a blow off valve fitted so you get that turbo like "pyssssj" sound everytime you relase the throttle.
Weird sounds form an 850, but I thought it was a bit cool.
There is a muffler for the blow-off valve in the kit so I think I will lower thet sound to a minimum.

I have one more day here in DC, and tomorrow I head back home.
When my work is done I will keep you all updated on the result.
And for Euro users, I might make it to the Dutch meeting July 10th.

Awesome! Great post, thanks a bunch...

keep the post coming.I have loads of questions.

[QUOTE=Noggie;16619192]A comment on the 645i feeling of yours.
I had a ride in my friends 97 540ia and that felt quicker than my 1990 850ia, despite my car having 354hp and his about 280hp.
The difference is in the gearbox, his newer steptronic car is locked in gear almost imediately, while my old 4-speed is not and wastes alot of power in the torque converter.
So his car not only feels quicker, it probably is quicker.
Same with your 645. there are 15 years in gearbox development between tse cars and I think you will find that this is whre all the difference in power is.

OK; if the differance in performance is the steptronic gearbox, then is it possible to fit the 645ci box in the 850 m70?
I understand that the gear stick in the 645 has no machanicle link to the gear box. gearchange is selected by the ecu.
dose the 645 box have a independant ecu that can be fitted to the 8?
I know BMW can provide an upgrade to the 645 for flappy paddle gear shift. what a cool mod that would be.

Driving 'Rich in Boston's car a couple of weeks back I noticed that what I initially thought was the slushbox causing weak initial acceleration in my car was also present on Rich's car with a manual transmission when starting at low rpms. Despite what people say here about the torque of the V12, it still makes it at around 3krpm and up and seems to be a dog below that.

Some people in the past have commented on how a torque converter with a different stall, and perhaps even fin geometry, can make a difference. It could be that it is not the automatic transmission itself that makes the car feel sluggish off the line, it is actually the torque converter with a stall that is too low making it take forever for the car to get up into the optimal torque range for a quick takeoff.

Regarding gearboxes locking the TC, they do so around around steady state speed, and some disengage when you floor it. They don't lock up to improve acceleration, rather the opposite.

8ights, having a not so sluggish auto equipped Camaro might be able to give insight on the TC and AT side of things. I agree with him that in a straight line, full acceleration drag race, an automatic transmission has a lot of benefits over a MT and will be faster if done properly.

As far as how much fun they are, well I definitely prefer rowing my own gears when fun is what I'm after :)

My Camaro is a 5speed, Too hard to dig a hole in concrete with a automatic!-) I have a hi stall in my 8, You don't need it if you don't ad some ponies to enjoy it. Atlease a port and polish, Cams, Injectors and a V2 chip, It will be much more fun with at lease 2 of the mentioned engine upgrades, If i had a manual 8, I would try unslugging it by adding cams, Lightened Flywheel, performance clutch and upgrading the final gear, For starters! The best way would be Forced induction and a suitable final gear, Imo!

Hobz.
My 850 had over 400nm at 2000rpm on my dynosheets, so I don't buy the low torque at low revs theory.
Also I have to this day not seen a single auto gearbox outrun a manual 0-60, at least not on any Euro or Asian built car.

When looking at how a clutch works, and how a torque converter works there are significant differences.
A clutch is a mechanical link with 0 loss (unless it's slipping) betweenthe engine and the drive train.
A torque converter are fluids moved around and has no fixed mechanical link between the engine and the drive train, at least not until enough pressure is buildt up.

The only advantage an auto gearbox has during accellerations are that there is allways power on the wheels, even during gearchanges.
The manual will be disconnected as long as you depress the clutch, and a gear change can be made in less than 0.5 seconds by a good driver.

As for the 8 series being slow off the line I blame the cars high weight and the torque converter.
The spec sheets also show a 0.5sec difference beween the auto and manual 0-60.

Dave.
there are very few gearboxes that will fit an M70.
not even the 840's gearbox will fit.
I also believe that the M73's gearbox is different.

Guess we are stuck with 4-speed auto or 6-speed manual.

My Camaro is a 5speed, Too hard to dig a hole in concrete with a automatic!-)

Oops, my bad :) Should stop assuming things :)


Hobz.
My 850 had over 400nm at 2000rpm on my dynosheets, so I don't buy the low torque at low revs theory.
Also I have to this day not seen a single auto gearbox outrun a manual 0-60, at least not on any Euro or Asian built car.

When looking at how a clutch works, and how a torque converter works there are significant differences.
A clutch is a mechanical link with 0 loss (unless it's slipping) betweenthe engine and the drive train.
A torque converter are fluids moved around and has no fixed mechanical link between the engine and the drive train, at least not until enough pressure is buildt up.

The only advantage an auto gearbox has during accellerations are that there is allways power on the wheels, even during gearchanges.
The manual will be disconnected as long as you depress the clutch, and a gear change can be made in less than 0.5 seconds by a good driver.

As for the 8 series being slow off the line I blame the cars high weight and the torque converter.
The spec sheets also show a 0.5sec difference beween the auto and manual 0-60.

True, the MT is more effective up to a certain power level, and then the AT will at some point gain the upperhand in the really fast cars. I think I may have been over estimating how fast the SC equipped 850 would be, it probably won't be fast enough where the AT can give it the edge over the MT. The MB SL65 can keep up with the SRT10, LP640 and ZR-1 according to C&D, despite having a worse power-weight ratio and an AT, but those are in the 600hp range so the SC 850 would be a little short of that mark. Just saying ATs aren't all that bad, and an SC 850 with an AT would still be very quick.

As for the sluggishness I described, I experienced the same thing on an AT and a MT car. The engine has a point at which it really wakes up. It might have been around 2k, but either way, it feels like it takes forever to get to that point. After it gets to that point I actually like the power of the 850, it's just getting to that point that kills me. On a MT car you can compensate by launching from higher revs, and on an AT car you do the same to some degree with a TC change.

That might be the case, I'm not an automatic specialist :)

The thing I noticed with the manual car I rode in, was that due to the gear ratio it really flew through the gears, meaning that you shifted alot.
It was a bit like this..... pushed back in the seat, jolted forward for a split second while shifting, then pushed hard bak into the seat again.
1st-2nd-3rd and 60mph in a blink, but due to the shifteing I did not get the "whooaaaa" sensation as the accelleration was constantly interrupted by gearchanges.

I expect the auto to be more of a steady push all the way.
So in case of the SC 850, auto may be better.
Cant wait to get it fitted and tested. hopefully I can go all out in Germany in 2 weeks.
Plan to bring the video camera :)

3rd gear was needed to get to 60mph? I didn't know the MT had such short gears, or perhaps he was babying it and not going to redline. Perhaps there a rear diff swap involved too?

From giving people rides in my LS1 equipped RX7 I definitely think the driver gets a much more enjoyable ride than the passenger during launches because he can brace himself :) I'm looking forward to hearing how your kit works out!

That might be the case, I'm not an automatic specialist :)

The thing I noticed with the manual car I rode in, was that due to the gear ratio it really flew through the gears, meaning that you shifted alot.
It was a bit like this..... pushed back in the seat, jolted forward for a split second while shifting, then pushed hard bak into the seat again.
1st-2nd-3rd and 60mph in a blink, but due to the shifteing I did not get the "whooaaaa" sensation as the accelleration was constantly interrupted by gearchanges.

I expect the auto to be more of a steady push all the way.
So in case of the SC 850, auto may be better.
Cant wait to get it fitted and tested. hopefully I can go all out in Germany in 2 weeks.
Plan to bring the video camera :)

3rd gear was needed to get to 60mph? I didn't know the MT had such short gears, or perhaps he was babying it and not going to redline. Perhaps there a rear diff swap involved too?


Doubt that John was babying it. Afaik Marco's 850 SC which he was driving has a 3.15 LSD, but that is not a part of the SC kit - Marco installed that before the SC iirc.

That might be the case, I'm not an automatic specialist :)

The thing I noticed with the manual car I rode in, was that due to the gear ratio it really flew through the gears, meaning that you shifted alot.
It was a bit like this..... pushed back in the seat, jolted forward for a split second while shifting, then pushed hard bak into the seat again.
1st-2nd-3rd and 60mph in a blink, but due to the shifteing I did not get the "whooaaaa" sensation as the accelleration was constantly interrupted by gearchanges.

I expect the auto to be more of a steady push all the way.
So in case of the SC 850, auto may be better. :)That's why i always say a auto is faster, Not stock but Forced inducted, Hardly any boost lost between gears on the auto, Unless you spend Big on a custom Manual tranny.

I suppose I should start a new thread but.
I have made a bid on a m6 v10, the car was parked in the owners garage with the windows down, The house was set afire due to someone leaving a chip pan on the cooker, in the blaze the fire brigade doused the car. the insurers have written the car of and the original owner has baught it back from them. the car has fire damage to the front. wing/bonnet/nosecone/mirrors/+wind screen.
will the motor gearbox and all the relavent ecu work in the 8?
has anyone heared of this unit being fitted to any outher BMW?

Your right, A new thread should trickle much more direct response, That would be so nice in a E31, I believe i heard this come up before but not sure if it's been done.

I will start a new thread if my bid is accepted. a little bit of reasurch first.

That's why i always say a auto is faster, Not stock but Forced inducted, Hardly any boost lost between gears on the auto, Unless you spend Big on a custom Manual tranny.



Disagree. Depends on lot on who is driving. In the right hands boost and RPM losses are minimized.

Otoh, most people drive an auto like a grandma. (Not my grandma, mind you - she has a double-lead foot.)

Would you bet on it?

Just a comment on the gears.

We had to use part of 3rd to get to 60, not all of if, butit ment shifting twice.

Would you bet on it?

Hardly a way to authoritatively decide who is right. Let's just note our disagreement and move on.

Sorry, It's ruff, Just trying to pay some bills! Seriously, It's the only way.

Just a little update.

My SC kit is now installed, but I have some minor issues.
The car is running very rich, so rich it hardly runs, I get like 9-13mpg.
I also busted a water hose, the hose was to close to teh SC pully and the pully just carved it's way through the hose... shit happens I guess.

EDIT: It's not the SC pully, but the A/C compressor pully, I just checked.

Need a new EML chip, and I'm replacing some sensors and vacuum hoses, this should clear my fuel issue.
Hope to have another try next weekend.

The car runns so rich that I can hardly get it past 3000rpm, up to 3000 it's just about the same as before, but if I manage to ease her up to almost 5000 and floor it, she takes of like a plane.
Sadly just for a few seconds, then she shifts and hits the trouble area again.
But if what I've seen on high revs are an indication on what there is to come.... shes going to be a monster when shes running properly.

Will keep you posted and make videos when the time comes..

Sounds awesome, can't wait to get some video! :)

I got an e-mail quote regarding the car in Kuwait that has just installed the kit.

With a 4 speed auto he managed to break loose the rear tires at 70km/h or 43mph.... impressive??

I can't wait for my car to run properly.

Just to keep things interresting :)

http://www.raceinfo.no/temp/tn_Supercharger%20install%20004mod.jpg


http://www.raceinfo.no/temp/tn_Supercharger%20install%20007mod.jpg


http://www.raceinfo.no/temp/tn_Supercharger%20install%20013mod.jpg

Wow Noggie, You don't play around! That was very quick, You might wanna get your self some plastic and some silicone and plug the bottom of those air boxes, You don't wanna suck any fluids through there, It will take a nice quic drink from a water puddle with those SC's, Thanks for updating, Looks great!

:clap Egil!

Wow Noggie, You don't play around! That was very quick, You might wanna get your self some plastic and some silicone and plug the bottom of those air boxes, You don't wanna suck any fluids through there, It will take a nice quic drink from a water puddle with those SC's, Thanks for updating, Looks great!

Just one more box of Chikitas (as seen in the background) and your car will have the same power like you with this natural turbo food... :D

Looks like a very simple setup in the end. What is the most time consuming part of the install?

I think removing the AC compressor, modifying it and reinstallig it along with the SC brakets took the most time.
that and cutting room for the intercooler in the plastic behing the kidney grilles.

The install took 2 guys about 30 hours to do.
But we had some problems, my car was slightly different to the car the kit was made on with regards to the AC compressor and it's bracket.
we had to do some machining on it when mounted on the car since we did not want to take the AC compressor and bracket off again, that thing was a Bi*tch to get back on.

All the work could have been done in a lot shorter time if we had test mounted it on the workbench. (now implemented into the installation manual)

If I was to do this again I would use a lot less time.

But like I said, If anyone else buys this kit, expect to use 30-40 hours to do the install, and bring a friend.

If you want to save some pics of bi-compressors:

http://www.hb-motorsport.com/english/fotogallerie.htm

http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/showDetails.html?id=117402372&__lp=7&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=searchNetGrossPrice&sortOption.sortOrder=ASCENDING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=3500&makeModelVariant1.modelId=43&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreetext=false&vehicleCategory=Car&segment=Car&siteId=GERMANY&damageUnrepaired=ALSO_DAMAGE_UNREPAIRED&export=ALSO_EXPORT&customerIdsAsString=&lang=en&pageNumber=7

Most of all I just want to drive my 8, but thats not happening anytime soon.
Have this Air/fuel mix issue that need to be fixed.
I'm beginning to dubt that I will be driving her this year.

Not only do we need to figure out the issue, but I will be leaving the country for work as well.
I pretty much expect to have 6 weeks at home before it's time to store her for the winter.

And if I need to ship chips back and forth between Norway and the US time will fly as the shipping back and forth takes two weeks alone.

There are other way where you can avoid the shipping of the chips back and forward. It will cost you $50 for a special device and I can teach you how to do the rest... John will aslo need to agree on this approach as well. Please contact me offline....
Taking this approach will save you all the shipping waiting time....

Cheers
Ethan



Most of all I just want to drive my 8, but thats not happening anytime soon.
Have this Air/fuel mix issue that need to be fixed.
I'm beginning to dubt that I will be driving her this year.

Not only do we need to figure out the issue, but I will be leaving the country for work as well.
I pretty much expect to have 6 weeks at home before it's time to store her for the winter.

And if I need to ship chips back and forth between Norway and the US time will fly as the shipping back and forth takes two weeks alone.

interresting.

I was thinking of going for a Haltec or similar system if this did not work out.

I am selling this. I will sell it cheap.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1309139

I am selling this. I will sell it cheap.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1309139

I'm interested, but can't find a way to contact you. Email me at JRWappel @ hotmail.com

Thanks,

-JRW

TT has my vote for obvious reasons..........lol..

That is what my car is gonna be when it grows up!

I remember seeing the article in a magazine about your car right after I found mine and I was like "WOW!!"

Since this thread has been revived I might give an update on my SC kit.

Pretty much the same as 3 months ago.... car is still not running.

My DMEs and EML has been in D.C for the last two months.
There is nothing wrong with them.
The issue apperas to be a US/Euro difference, In what apparently is called the EKG (or something).
The DME chips are standard world wide, but contains different mapping depending on region.
This EKG has some sort of bit assignment that tells the car which program to use.

I my case it looks like the change was done in the US part of the software, but my car read the unchanged Euro software.
They are working on locating the correct location to make the change and when they find itI will get a new set of DME chips that should work fine.

Anyway, I probably won't be driving the car this year.

I hope you get this sorted.It sounds very technical.

what otehr cars are running this kit in the U.S.??

what otehr cars are running this kit in the U.S.??

Marco S. (Marco from Rockville MD) on RF has it in his red 6 spd. Had a ride in it in May driven by John himself.

Impressive!!

Don't know of any others.

Marco's isn't this kit I don't believe..... can't be, as it's Jon's design, no?

Marco's isn't this kit I don't believe..... can't be, as it's Jon's design, no?

I thought Jon designed it and Marco's was the test car and owner of the first kit.

That was my point to what Lad said. Emerald was asking about who was running the kit thats in the thread. The only thing they have in common is that they're both superchargers.

That was my point to what Lad said. Emerald was asking about who was running the kit thats in the thread. The only thing they have in common is that they're both superchargers.

Sorry, misunderstood :)

That was my point to what Lad said. Emerald was asking about who was running the kit thats in the thread. The only thing they have in common is that they're both superchargers.

Noggie flew to DC and picked up John's kit which he then installed. It's in the pictures above.

If the discussion is about a different kit then I misunderstood.

Btw, let's not confuse John with Jon - they are two different people. :D

interresting.

I was thinking of going for a Haltec or similar system if this did not work out.

Egil, if you decide to go the Haltech route, please tell. I have good contacts in Haltech, and I've mounted Haltech on my Maserati myself. Did everything from swapping out the loom to making the trigger configuration. The big question is how separate the engine loom is from the rest of the car's loom. Anyone know?

Cheers, Jarle

Yes I flew to DC and picked up a kit with John.

I also had a ride in Marcos 6-speed and it was very impressive, the way that car just flew through the rev's are quite amazing (though he had to do alot of shifting).
Based on a video clip the car does 0-60 in about 5.0 seconds.

One other car has this kit installed, in Kuwait.
Though this is also a US car.
I got a feedback from John regarding the Kuwait car, a 4 speed auto, silly fast and wheelspinn at 70kph/43mph.

Mine is the first Euro car to be converted, and due to previous modifications to my car by Hartge, things are even more trickyer.

So to answer the question about how many cars hs this kit installed, the answer is 3 including mine.
Might be 1 or 2 more ny now, as I know thre where some US owners that where interested when I picked up my kit back in June
John also plans to convert his Twin Turbo to this SC kit that he's selling.

Jarle, as for a squirt, thre is a guy close to me who uses a system called ViPec, apparently a very good system.
However such a conversion would probably cost me another $4-5000.

So Noggie by the time all is said and done what will be the total cost out the door?
Installed and all?

Wow Noggie :( I'm sad that it isnt working out for you. I remember how excited u were....

Yes I flew to DC and picked up a kit with John.

I also had a ride in Marcos 6-speed and it was very impressive, the way that car just flew through the rev's are quite amazing (though he had to do alot of shifting).
Based on a video clip the car does 0-60 in about 5.0 seconds.

One other car has this kit installed, in Kuwait.
Though this is also a US car.
I got a feedback from John regarding the Kuwait car, a 4 speed auto, silly fast and wheelspinn at 70kph/43mph.

Mine is the first Euro car to be converted, and due to previous modifications to my car by Hartge, things are even more trickyer.

So to answer the question about how many cars hs this kit installed, the answer is 3 including mine.
Might be 1 or 2 more ny now, as I know thre where some US owners that where interested when I picked up my kit back in June
John also plans to convert his Twin Turbo to this SC kit that he's selling.

Jarle, as for a squirt, thre is a guy close to me who uses a system called ViPec, apparently a very good system.
However such a conversion would probably cost me another $4-5000.

Hey Egil!

Haltech will set you back about 2500-3000$ including everything..
I've heard of the Vipec, but never tried it..

Cheers, Jarle

Smokum.
As of right now I still have faith in John.
So my cost has not increased yet.
The kit, airline ticked, my week in D.C. the luggage overweight and shipping my EML/DME's back to D.C...... My total cost is probaby just over $10.000

I did the installation with a friend, and I paid him a few hudred dollars to help me as he is unemployed.

So if John can work out the mapping my cost stops here.
A squirt might be a future mod in that case, and perhaps a smaller SC pully to increase the boost another psi.
The current 7,5psi setup will give you 450+hp, with 8,5psi boost you should be well past 500hp, ad a good squirt and you may get close to 600hp.

Currently Johns kit is bolt on on US-spec cars, so the cost there is about $8000, plus shipping and installation if you can't do it yourself.

When mine works it should be the same for euro spec cars too.
So I am kind of the Euro spec prototype car.

850Girl.
It will work out eventially, just takes time.
When I test drove my car I got a sample of what she will be like when she is running smooth... And that will put a huge smile on my face for sure.... and the waiting time will be easily forgotten.
For now I guess I'll have to get by in my M3.

Jarle.
usually 12 cylinder squirts are harder to come by, and more expensive.
The price I mentioned was installed and including live mapping on a dyno, maybe even with one coil pr cylinder mod too.
The guy here is well known as a good tuner, he has tuned alot of Cosworth engines to pretty extreme outputs.

Smokum.

Jarle.
usually 12 cylinder squirts are harder to come by, and more expensive.
The price I mentioned was installed and including live mapping on a dyno, maybe even with one coil pr cylinder mod too.
The guy here is well known as a good tuner, he has tuned alot of Cosworth engines to pretty extreme outputs.

Hey Egil!

I use the e11v2 (PS2000), and it is perfectly capable of controlling V12 engines. Remember the Biturbo is an odd-fire V6, meaning you need 6 coils and cannot use wastefire. So would basically be the same installation as a V12.

Regarding the mapping. I'm sure the 850 map is well documented, making a basemap should be quite easy on your own. Finetuning it can be done on the street if you have a wideband lambda..

I used RATS to map my car. Anders Ringstad is a well known tuner that lives just around the corner... I had to map my car three times, which was a B**CH. An expensive one.

Cheers, Jarle

Just got a call from John.
New DME chips are mailed today or tomorrow.

I sent my ZCS data, which was in the EML/DME lid, to John this morning, and he is now burning a new set of chips and sending them to me now that he had the data he needed.

If I'm lucky I might be testing them this weekend.

Can't wait to drive the car again.
It's been parked since late June now.

Thats Awesome news Noggie!! :)

IT'S ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

New set of chips are in, the car is running and all I can say is OMFG!!!!!

The car is not 100% yet, needs a bit of fine tuning so I need to dig up a dyno for some results and a baseline for further improvements.

The car is quicker and more powerful all over the rev band, but once you pass 3500rpm.... she just kicks you back in the seat, and takes off.
A friend with a CSI told me that it was definately quicker than hos CSI, and the power was a lot smoother.

I do think I need to do something with the transmission, I'm wasting alot of power at low rev's so I guess a hi stall converter needs to go in, my gearbox is leaking so it needs to come down anyway.
I'll check my level as it's probably low, and topping it up might help a bit.

I will post back with more info later, I hope to do a dyno next weekend.

:buttrockwell done NOGGIE:buttrock

Good to hear, Congrats Noggie!

With this success, we can finally announce the availability of the supercharger kit for M70-based E31's (with stock camshafts) for both the North American and European (ECE) markets.

The only remaining step for Egil is to refine the Air/Fuel ratios to more closely match the Hartge camshafts.

Way to go Egil !!!

Rgds...

Hats off to you John, Great Kit!

With this success, we can finally announce the availability of the supercharger kit for M70-based E31's (with stock camshafts) for both the North American and European (ECE) markets.

The only remaining step for Egil is to refine the Air/Fuel ratios to more closely match the Hartge camshafts.

Way to go Egil !!!

Rgds...Price for complete kit??

Good news Egil! I'm happy to hear you finally got the car running before winter kicks in.

It would be awesome to get an approximate 0-60 time. Perhaps even compare stock TC with a higher stall one if you get to that :)

Price for complete kit??

Please contact me offline if you would like more information about the kit.

john@boostedlogic.com
+1-703-971-4810

Rgds...

Hobz.

0-60 times have not been tested yet, I need to check my gearbox oil level first of all as I think I'm low due to my leak.
At the moment I think I might be in the 6.0sec ballpark though, when I get the fine tuning done, and my gearbox topped up I might be below 5,5 sec.

It sure is fun to drive the car again.

How about some engine pics??

How about some engine pics??
With sound

Any 840 versions available?

Any 840 versions available?
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1121452.htm

The kit is only for the 5.0l. might be something for the 5.4 and CSI in the future, doubt John will develop one for the 840.
He has put a lot of money into developing this kit already.

ESS has a kit for the V8, I know they have for the 540, might be usable on the 840, worth checking.

Moving pictures and sound that might have to wait.
I'm leaving for work in China in a week, and I hope to get a dyno done before I leave.
Still need to build the new exhaust too....

As for speed, I made a pull on the motorway from 60-100mph, that was done in seconds... very few seconds..... I'm sure this thing will do 180mph whitout breaking a sweat.

She is running a bit rich still, estimate to have just over 400 crank hp at the moment, I can smell fuel in the exhaust, so once the map is fine tuned I'm sure I will have more power.
Due to my cams I hope to get 400 wheel hp, so a bit more than 450 at the crank.

I also have an option to increase th boost 1 psi by using a different pully, which is going to bring me past 500 crank hp, though that means overspeeding the SC by 15% = no warranty.

Car is going to the detailer for a deep interior clean tomorrow and I hope to have her back by Friday, and to do a dyno next weekend before I go to work.

This is a picture under the car.

http://images.bimmers.no/files/syylacsqyosz6y9j5jei.jpg

Hope this picture is shown, it's in my 8'er org gallery.

http://www.8er.ch/forum/picture.php?albumid=169&pictureid=1228
|

Stage ll Sc, Nice!

I'm pretty excited for some vids hah.

Here's a video of Marco's car running against a modified Subaru WRX STi. From 20mph onwards, the Supercharged 850 was faster and actually started to overtake the Subaru at around 90 MPH...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h_ncIB5NQw
.
.
...and here's a video of the dyno runs we did earlier this year...
.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHJrRTiTOkA
.
.
Somewhere I have a video of Marco's car running against a late model Maserati Coupe (Marco's car was able to keep up - - almost). I will post that video later if I am able to find it.

Rgds...

Did, both my picures show?

Its a rotrex supercharger, I looked at them a long time ago on their website. I'm sure you could twin supercharge an M70 with them. Don't know to much about Johns kit but would love to see twin rotrex superchargers in action and the hp numbers they could produce. Is that stage III perhaps?

Props!!! NOGGIE Whats the cost for the single supercharger vs twin?

The problem is that there is not room for another one.

Smokum. I have no clue, there is no twin kit like this.

If you want twin SC there is a guy in Holland working on a twin screw compressor kit.
they are top mounted on each side of the intake manifolds.

They have major issues with that kit, but I think they might be closing in on something.
I know thay've had issues with the belts, and the mapping is more difficult with two chargers, as they probably dont deliver the exact same boost.
Their target is 450hp, but so far I think the last test gave them something like 380-390hp.

Down side is that you imideately spot it when you open the hood, I like the steathyness of the kit I have.

This is the one in Holland.
Think the price is in the same ballpark as Johns... I think I was quoted roughly the same price a few years back if I'm not mistaken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQO1k_1fyWU

Please contact me offline if you would like more information about the kit.

john@boostedlogic.com
+1-703-971-4810

Rgds...


How soon for a M73 conversion with a Firebird remap? Soon perhaps? :alright

Peace!

Noggie, wanna bet?

http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/14/l_7c8291c143fe4516841cd93864885a25.jpg
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/22/l_78f7b4cbb06b4a0ca3529a41496b0d82.jpg
http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/5/l_77b01604008141418055cbebdb947a41.jpg

I can see how they balanced the SCs by using the intercooler as a collector. That "squeezed" pipe on the intake side looks like a bit of a concern.
Still like John's/Noggie's set up.
What's that cable on the air cleaner for? Another butterfly valve?
LouM...

All these belts are just crazy!

Noggie, wanna bet?

I ment that there was no room for one on the lower left hand side of the car.

I found that on the web yesterday too, however that is also a very obvious system.
You won't see Johns system unless you are looking for it, thats what I like about it.
You don't even see the intercooler unless you bow down and look under my licenceplate.



What's that cable on the air cleaner for? Another butterfly valve?
LouM...

have no idea, looks like a valve.

What's that cable on the air cleaner for? Another butterfly valve?
LouM...

It looks like the cable goes up to a crank on the throttlebodies. Perhaps they added throttle bodies by the air cleaners and drive them remotely using the stock throttlebodies. Don't know if this involved removing the blade in the stock throttle body or not.

How soon for a M73 conversion with a Firebird remap? Soon perhaps? :alright

Peace!

I am ready to go for M73 SC with John's hardware.
John is pretty bussy and it takes time to adapt the mechanical part to M73 5.4L.
As soon as I will get his hardware - I will convert my 850CiA M73 to do the software. It will be a EML, 2xDME and EGS remap like on my NA tune for M73.

I am looking for the real M73 SC version with 500HP :-)

cheers,
firebird

What pressure do you think you can run on the M73?

7-9psi (0,5-0,6bar) should not be a problem, I know they run stock e46 M3 S54B32 engines on that pressure, and they have a higher compression ratio.

I'm sure you could probably run twise that pressure, or 14,7psi (1bar) but you really don't need that kind of boost.
With that kind of boost you are probably in the 800hp ballpark.

5-600hp is pretty much the most you should run on a street car, any more and the car is just to hard to handle.

Oooo oooo. For a M73? Firebird...pls send some pics or updated info about this. Thanks!

http://www.supercharger-experience.com/cars.php
C38-81 Rotex model looks like it can push 500hp is that the one your using NOG?
And how much was a single kit?

Maybe if there is enough demand we can get John to invest some passion and our $$$$ in a M73 SC kit? At this point it should be a cookie cutter for him? In all honesty I have an M70 and M73 for the SC kit and I would rather prefer to do the M73 SC if feasible...

Firebird if we need to coordinate some efforts for the M73 folks, I am all yours. Is now a question on getting John to do some of his magic....of course in a business fashion... after all is all business.....




I am ready to go for M73 SC with John's hardware.
John is pretty bussy and it takes time to adapt the mechanical part to M73 5.4L.
As soon as I will get his hardware - I will convert my 850CiA M73 to do the software. It will be a EML, 2xDME and EGS remap like on my NA tune for M73.

I am looking for the real M73 SC version with 500HP :-)

cheers,
firebird

What pressure do you think you can run on the M73?

After talking to John and Ed I think 6psi will be a safe number.

If we need more boost we will see what it takes to get the 500HP. M73's compression ratio is 10:1.

I already sent a few parts to John in order to see the difference betwen M70 and M73. Right now we would need a M73 850Ci AC compressor (could be a damaged one) for the design of the SC bracket.

The best would be if someone could "stop" at Johns place for lifting up his M73 to get some measurements done for the kit. I am in Vegas - so little bit off...

cheers,
firebird

Oooo oooo. For a M73? Firebird...pls send some pics or updated info about this. Thanks!

what do you mean with updated info about this?

For my M73 NA tuning, I wrote a couple postings on www.8er.ch (http://www.8er.ch), on roadfly, here and on www.clube31.de (http://www.clube31.de).

850CiA M73 nobody can proper tune without modifying the DME, EML and EGS - thats why it is so rare to find someone who can do it.

firebird

I am ready to go for M73 SC with John's hardware.
John is pretty bussy and it takes time to adapt the mechanical part to M73 5.4L.
As soon as I will get his hardware - I will convert my 850CiA M73 to do the software. It will be a EML, 2xDME and EGS remap like on my NA tune for M73.

I am looking for the real M73 SC version with 500HP :-)

cheers,
firebird


Thanks Firebird! That sure would be a great setup. I spoke with John about this set up last spring and it sounds like it may be gaining some momentum.

After talking to John and Ed I think 6psi will be a safe number.

If we need more boost we will see what it takes to get the 500HP. M73's compression ratio is 10:1.

I already sent a few parts to John in order to see the difference betwen M70 and M73. Right now we would need a M73 850Ci AC compressor (could be a damaged one) for the design of the SC bracket.

The best would be if someone could "stop" at Johns place for lifting up his M73 to get some measurements done for the kit. I am in Vegas - so little bit off...

cheers,
firebird



what do you mean with updated info about this?

For my M73 NA tuning, I wrote a couple postings on www.8er.ch (http://www.8er.ch), on roadfly, here and on www.clube31.de (http://www.clube31.de).

850CiA M73 nobody can proper tune without modifying the DME, EML and EGS - thats why it is so rare to find someone who can do it.

firebird
You have done it before right?
How can it be done if you are not inclined to mod these things anylonger?
would someone send the parts to you to be modded?

You have done it before right?
How can it be done if you are not inclined to mod these things anylonger?
would someone send the parts to you to be modded?

sorry but can you be more specific?
what do you mean by - done it before?

firebird

The problem is that there is not room for another one.

Yes there is. If you followed roadfly posts from a long time ago, you will see that the Bottom mount single Rotrex S/C was my idea (http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/bmw/bmw-8-series-e31/8490769-1.html) to mount at the 2nd Alternator location. I also had the idea of the twin Rotrex using a triangular common belt or a 2 belt system (The same used by the E39 ///M5 twin SC) but stopped as I was focusing on the 6L project of my car (It was supposed to be a 6LTT). but I assure you there is room and you can even clutch it so you can control the RPM the S/C should come alive rather than run all the time.

PS. The Strong Strut was also my idea, (http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/bmw/bmw-8-series-e31/5456601-2.html) but at that time I was not considering the Alpina Style hood. I may revisit a different design for the strut brace that is more like the ///M (Behind the engine bent around the firewall)

That's great and all Faisal.... we know that RF was first in many things E31 related, but as shown once again references to old posts there are also many times worthless because they don't archive all the pictures. I wanted to see the strut.......8^)

Old RF post pictures are at the mercy of the original post authors because RF initially did not allow/offer image hosting. Thus the references to images did not survive in many cases because the OPs cleared the images from their hosts.

Image hosting has not matured into persistent free hosting services until very recently. BF, being a more recent phenom than RF, has had the benefit of this development since inception.

Dinging RF for the limitations of the past is like insisting that they somehow retroactively chase all those referrals and host them. It is unrealistic imo.

If you ask the RF OPs real nice they will likely dig them up for you, btw.

Johns kit is a good upgrade to any M70 850.
It's got a good price that will give you the most "bang for bucks" on the marked today.

For prices please contact John.

This kit was made on an M70 and it took something like 3 years to complete, and has cost a small fortune to make.
I first talked to John late 2007, and hoped to have a kit ready by summer 2008, this did not happen as the kit was not completed in Marcos car until late 2008.

As for kits for the M73 and S70, this will require John to get his hands on a car and make/adapt the kit.
So unless someone is willing to lend John their car for 6 months or so, there is not going to be a kit for them.

The power I have in my car, albeit this is not the full power I will get after some fine tuning, is plenty.
I really don't see a point in more than 500hp.
Marcos car has 450+ at the crank depending on how you calculate the drive train loss, 393 wheel hp is quite good.
When my car is fine tuned it might develop 400-410 wheel hp due to my cams, I really don't think I will need more in this old car.

So why have a twin setup, a single system works just fine.

Smokum.
I dont know what Rotrex charger is used, but John has done som modifications to it, think it has to do with the fittment and the brackets. All I know is that it puts out 7,5 psi of boost.

J
So why have a twin setup, a single system works just fine.


Amen.

Having two is a detriment.

The single unit puts out the proper air volume at the required pressure, so why complicate things? What's the benefit?

So why have a twin setup, a single system works just fine.

Better efficiency plus the 850 has 2 of everything so why change the norm. :D:D

I agree that 2 S/C sharing a common IC does not make sense but think of the DINAN TT setup with 2 IC and any LHM concerns.

I don’t know what Rotrex charger is used, but John has done some modifications to it, think it has to do with the fitment and the brackets. All I know is that it puts out 7,5 psi of boost.

He used a C38 series (IIRC 81 trim). He did not do any modifications on the unit itself other than changing the pulley. I have been to his house numerous times and very familiar with Marco's install as well as his own TT install (given him a little hand a couple of times with my limited ability)


I also think (personal opinion ofcourse) that GerryUKCSi's S/C system with Laminova chargecooler and AquaMist could be a much better setup.

Having 400 wHP is fine, but someone can get used to it pretty quick. I for 1 can. Drove a C6 = it was great, then drove a Z06 = loved it and than drove a lingenfelter Z06 = forgot what it was like in the base C6 (Local CorvetteFest).

I read that that twin rotrex supercharger setup i posted pictures of was pushing 660hp. Found that post on a UK forum.

We all have our opinions on what hp would be enough, but thats what makes us all different correct?

To each his own

I read that that twin rotrex supercharger setup i posted pictures of was pushing 660hp.

Yes. With a 9.0:1 compression. Not sure what was the boost PSi.

My take is that 500hp is not something that is going to give you reliability issues
The engine and drive train can take this very well.
Not sure I would drive that 660hp twin setup on a stok drive train.

I've driven a couple of the 507hp e60 M5 and that car was sick, and will be what I get when it's time for the M3 to go.

Mr. Clarkson on UK's Top Gear had a drive in a Mercedes C65 AMG, 612hp V12.
The car was constantly interrupted by the TC during driving, and turn that off and you wear out a set of wheels in less than a week, plus you have your hands full to keep it on the road.
I think he actually said "trying to stop it from killing you"

At 500hp you have heaps of power, and you ane not constantly spinning the wheels...or bugged by the TC.

But each to their own, 500 is enough for me... at least for now.

You make a good point Noggie

I read that that twin rotrex supercharger setup i posted pictures of was pushing 660hp. Found that post on a UK forum.

We all have our opinions on what hp would be enough, but thats what makes us all different correct?

To each his own

Just wondering how often he goes through the longish belts.

.
My 2 pence worth. I recently sold a 645ci 380 hp, in the wet the car was constantly tripping the TC,And this year the UK has had lot's of rain.
If that gearbox fitted the m70 then that is my idea of heaven.
I agree with NOGGIE 500hp is more than enough 450 is ample.

I have to stand corrected.

I just found the Clarkson clip on youtube and it was the SL65 Black with 660hp.

But the traction bit is still worth mentioning.... and it's a pretty cool car non the less.

However, I want a car I can drive in dry and wet, and not change rubber twise a summer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdg7Rhijzok

I want a car I can drive in dry and wet, and not change rubber twise a summer

OK. I see your point and agree with your concern. I just happen to have (and had) dedicated cars for different use and my 8s never saw snow or heavy rain.

OK. I see your point and agree with your concern. I just happen to have (and had) dedicated cars for different use and my 8s never saw snow or heavy rain.

That is perfectly understandable, after all you and me live in "different worlds" Faisal.

When I bought my 850 3 years back, it cost me about $38.000, new in 1990 it was in the $300.000 area.
My 2004 M3 that I bought last year set me back $110.000.... for a then 4 year old M3.

The new M3 base model starts at $225.000, if you want a well kitted one, expect to spend $260.000.

The current M5 is close to $400.000 for a car with all the options.

The comming 5-series GT entry level base model is $140.000, the smallest engine and, before you start selecting the options.

So due to car prices, I do drive my 8 in rain, but never in snow as it is parked from late October to April.
I simply can't afford to have a bunch of various dedicated cars.

If I could I would have my 850, an e93 M3 vert and an e60 M5.... and possibly a X5 if I had a wife.

That is perfectly understandable, after all you and me live in "different worlds" Faisal.

When I bought my 850 3 years back, it cost me about $38.000, new in 1990 it was in the $300.000 area.
My 2004 M3 that I bought last year set me back $110.000.... for a then 4 year old M3.

The new M3 base model starts at $225.000, if you want a well kitted one, expect to spend $260.000.

The current M5 is close to $400.000 for a car with all the options.

The comming 5-series GT entry level base model is $140.000, the smallest engine and, before you start selecting the options.

So due to car prices, I do drive my 8 in rain, but never in snow as it is parked from late October to April.
I simply can't afford to have a bunch of various dedicated cars.

If I could I would have my 850, an e93 M3 vert and an e60 M5.... and possibly a X5 if I had a wife.


Engil,
Are we talk US dollars? :eek:

Peace!

Engil,
Are we talk US dollars? :eek:

Peace!

Most likely, Norway uses Kroner.

At least this is after tax as tax is included in the price of all purchases (and boy are things taxed). But still, I remember when my brother bought a crappy old little Ford Fiesta (festiva here) and that was a big purchase for him ;P For the same money he could have bought quite a nice car over here

I'm definitely enjoying how cheap things are here, especially cars :)

Engil,
Are we talk US dollars? :eek:

Peace!

Yes converted to USD.

If you come here feel free to go to McDonalds and pay $15 for a meal.
$2 for a 0,5l bottle of soda (i.e coke)
$14 for a 20 pack of cigarettes
$5 to ride the bus
$7 for a gallon of fuel

I could go on and on.

Vages ar a bit higher, the average persons income is probably $50.000, less if you are young though, and 30-35% income tax. and a 25% tax on everything (VAT).

Houses.... hehe.. my 800sqft (75sqm) apartment has a marked value of $400.000, If I want to buy a house.... $800.000-1mill for a standard house of say 2000sqft on just enough land to put the house on.

Yes converted to USD.

If you come here feel free to go to McDonalds and pay $15 for a meal.
$2 for a 0,5l bottle of soda (i.e coke)
$14 for a 20 pack of cigarettes
$5 to ride the bus
$7 for a gallon of fuel

I could go on and on.

Vages ar a bit higher, the average persons income is probably $50.000, less if you are young though, and 30-35% income tax. and a 25% tax on everything (VAT).

Houses.... hehe.. my 800sqft (75sqm) apartment has a marked value of $400.000, If I want to buy a house.... $800.000-1mill for a standard house of say 2000sqft on just enough land to put the house on.

That's the downside of the oil boom for Norway, if things weren't so expensive there you'd have other problems due to the amount of disposable income the oil business generates for the government. Having said that, I love Norway, it's a beautiful place and I've enjoyed my various visits there. I've even been seen Bergen in the sunshine!
(Egil will understand why that's worth mentioning) ;-)

Naah Switzerland is better :-) Kidding... But prices are crazy there... I did spend some time in Stavanger in the Schlumberger days...
But I wouldn't retire there, that's for sure..... My favorite retirement spot is on one of the 300 beautiful islands between Thailand and Malaysia. Hopefully my modest invstement in a tiny island with beach view will pay off for my retiring days. I will hate to move there when prices will increase by 500% due to some oil discovery :-(

Egil, where in Norway do you live? I was born there, and still a citizen, but I've lived in the US for quite some time. I remember visiting family in '99 and talking to someone about my new M3 and he told me that car would have cost me well over $100,000. Some years later I had toyed with the idea of moving back at one point and calculated the tax on bringing my previous 850 with me. The taxes on the car would have been more than I paid for it! They calculate it based on engine displacement and horsepower apparently.

stengesd
I live in Stavanger, have been for the last 10 years now.

But in my younger years I moved around a lot, so I have been all over the country.
Was born up north, and moved to the middle parts later, some years in school in various locations, military service before I ended up in Stavanger.
This is actually the place I have stayed the longest in my 32 year long life.

Cars tax are based on the cars weight, hp, and either engine displacement or co2 emission for newer cars.
think we used to have a loophole that if you moved to Norway and brought a car that you had owned for more than 1 year there was no import tax on it.

Ethanw
Schlumberger... wow... what did you do?? (you can tell me I'm a "rig pig")

I like Asia too.... wouldn't mind living on an island in Indonesia later in life.

Argonaut.... you mean it was not raining.... wow.. you lucky :)

Naah Switzerland is better :-) Kidding... But prices are crazy there... I did spend some time in Stavanger in the Schlumberger days...
But I wouldn't retire there, that's for sure..... My favorite retirement spot is on one of the 300 beautiful islands between Thailand and Malaysia. Hopefully my modest invstement in a tiny island with beach view will pay off for my retiring days. I will hate to move there when prices will increase by 500% due to some oil discovery :-(

Nice there for sure, but isn't it kinda low sealevel-wise? Them tsunamis are not much fun.

Actually you're correct, sea-level does sucks balls. On the last tsunami luckily my property was on the other side of the island. Regardless, I have a probably $100 worth of Malaysian quality house on it, so consider it disposal? The question is when is time to build what am I going to put on that place to sustain the mother nature being pissed off at us.....


Nice there for sure, but isn't it kinda low sealevel-wise? Them tsunamis are not much fun.

Hey Ethan, just build a house-boat right on the dry land then when the tsunami comes you will be prepared (just like Noah) :D

Well....In Bangladesh, I had to pay 300% tax on the price of the car as it was over 1600CC displacement. Beat that. LOL

(Compared to here in MD, USA I paid 5% sales tax and a small registration, Tag Title, etc fees.)

True that :redspot Good idea Hey Ethan, just build a house-boat right on the dry land then when the tsunami comes you will be prepared (just like Noah) :D

Actually the island I plan to retire on, Langkawi is a duty free place and you can buy most of the luxury cars for much mucccchhhh cheaper. The trick is that you need to keep the car on that island :)


Well....In Bangladesh, I had to pay 300% tax on the price of the car as it was over 1600CC displacement. Beat that. LOL

(Compared to here in MD, USA I paid 5% sales tax and a small registration, Tag Title, etc fees.)

someone needs to buy this from me.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1309139

someone need to answer the private messages and posts made on that...

email me at buildable at gmail.com

someone needs to buy this from me.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1309139
hi YOUR EMAIL WONT WORK can you PM me

OK. lets try and get this thread back on track.

Today I did the first dyno run.
As expected there is a bit of work to do.
I'm mostly running lean all over the rev band and "only" managed to get 330hp and 320ft-lbs (433nm) on my rear wheels.

A bit lower than Marcos 393hp/352ft-lbs (477nm)

So I'm "short" 60+hp and 30ft-lbs/45nm.

Also needs a bit of work to get the low and mid range power better as this is a bit low.

Next chip should be ready when I get back fom work, so a new run will be done in another 5 weeks time.

noggie; dose the power come in earlier and what dose it sound like inside the car? how can we wait 5 weeks?

noggie; dose the power come in earlier and what dose it sound like inside the car? how can we wait 5 weeks?

I think its a lot more powerful all over than before, but the torque chart got messed up by the gearbox not locking up, and on the dyna-pack the rpm is calculated, and the torque is calculated from the rpm and hp.... so at low rpm the graph is useless.

Right now it clearly picks up around 3000rpm, but thats probably because it runs very lean up until then
The AF value is almost 15 to 3000rpm and then drops and reaches 13 at 4000, before rising again at 5000 and hits 14 at 5500rpm.
Should have been steady around 12,5-13 all the way, maybe even below 12 at higher rpm's
(higher the number the leanser it run)

Sound is not not all that different from before, there is a slight SC sound but not to much, at below 3000 rpm I barely hear the dump valve (which is not muffled at the moment.
At higher rpm's there is a very prominent dump.

That said it does have 65 hp and 55 ft/lbs more on the wheels at max than before I fitted the SC.

A friend with a CSI said that it felt more powerful than his CSI, and that it was clearly more powerfull at lower rpm's.

As for the 5 weeks wait.
Monday I go to China t work, and will return November 6th, by then I hope to have new chips waiting for me, I then need to drve the car for a few days to make the DME's re-adapt to the engine, so a dyno should be possible sometime between the 10th and 15th.

is there a fixable fault with the gear box Noggie or do you have to replace it?

There is nothing wrong with the gearbox.

You see, normally you have a sensor on one of the plug leads to read the rpm to the dyno.

But on a dyna pack, you remove your rear wheels and connect two units directly to the wheel hubs.
You then do a calibration, say you run the car to 2000rpm and tell the system that this is 2000rpm (based on wheel speed I guess).

Since the automatic gearbox dont lock the gear at low rpms but rather slip on the converter everything got messed up.

When I was just nice an easy going to 2000 rpm (for the calibration) it was fine, but when I floored it to do the run it was slipping on the converter so that when the system saw 1000 the enginge was at 2000.
at some stage the gear lock up, so I guess from like 3500rpm everthing is ok.

I used "M3" mode for the run as the car does not downshift then.

The peak values are correct, its just that the RPM scale is off, especially at the low end.

Now, if the rpm had been taken from a plug lead this would not have been a problem.

The main thing for this run was to get the AF reading, now I just need John to give the car more fuel and we try again.
Perhaps on a convetional dyno.

maybe you need to swap to stock cams as well. I know in many cases, cams designed for NA will yield less power when you feed your car some boost. Who knows with the specs on your specific cams though..

I think its a lot more powerful all over than before, but the torque chart got messed up by the gearbox not locking up, and on the dyna-pack the rpm is calculated, and the torque is calculated from the rpm and hp.... so at low rpm the graph is useless.

Right now it clearly picks up around 3000rpm, but thats probably because it runs very lean up until then
The AF value is almost 15 to 3000rpm and then drops and reaches 13 at 4000, before rising again at 5000 and hits 14 at 5500rpm.
Should have been steady around 12,5-13 all the way, maybe even below 12 at higher rpm's
(higher the number the leanser it run)

Sound is not not all that different from before, there is a slight SC sound but not to much, at below 3000 rpm I barely hear the dump valve (which is not muffled at the moment.
At higher rpm's there is a very prominent dump.

That said it does have 65 hp and 55 ft/lbs more on the wheels at max than before I fitted the SC.

A friend with a CSI said that it felt more powerful than his CSI, and that it was clearly more powerfull at lower rpm's.

As for the 5 weeks wait.
Monday I go to China t work, and will return November 6th, by then I hope to have new chips waiting for me, I then need to drve the car for a few days to make the DME's re-adapt to the engine, so a dyno should be possible sometime between the 10th and 15th.

Glad that your engine is finally getting sorted. Can't wait to hook up with you Egil...

* Right now it clearly picks up around 3000rpm, but thats probably because it runs very lean up until then
The AF value is almost 15 to 3000rpm and then drops and reaches 13 at 4000, before rising again at 5000 and hits 14 at 5500rpm.

It sure sounds like you shouldn't really drive that car much at this stage. At 15 the heat inside the chamber is probably way to high... May burn valves, melt pistons and\or crack stuff. Won't happen unless driven carelessly though.

*Should have been steady around 12,5-13 all the way, maybe even below 12 at higher rpm's (higher the number the leanser it run)

Actually the most common pinging scenario is mid-range with full boost. So mid-range-on boost I'd definately make sure it runs less than 12.5 and the same when you hit full boost on higher rpms like you say.

Low boost scenarios you can usually stay as close to 14.7 as you'd like. Or even much leaner to save fuel.. It will vibrate a bit more though when leaning out..

I must say that the power increase at this stage is substantial!! Sounds great!

Cheers, Jarle