Are there any video or computer games on the market that would be good practice to atleast learn some road courses? It would be ideal for the game to simulate my car, but I would atleast like to drive on road courses that are close to me such as Road America, Putnam Park (Indianapolis area), Gateway International (St. Louis area), or any variety of popular road courses.

I heard there was either a PlayStation or PS2 game that had Road America in it. A PC game would be ideal with the great selection of wheels and pedals, etc. (plus I wouldn't have to buy another console!).

What would be awesome is a BMWCCA licensed game of car control clinic or something like that, LOL! Where first you have to earn your racing license, and then race W2W on road courses in your modified BMW! (i know, its off-the-wall)

So is there anything out there with road courses?

GT3 lol

Not that I know of... although I just got back from Putnam park today and have a ton of in car vids at Gateway... if you want 'em I can upload them to my computer this week and send them to you. Not as good as playing a game or driving yourself, but they might give you at least a idea. Although honestly, if your doing it to try and learn the course I don't think a video game will help a heck of alot. Gateway is an EASY course to learn, and considering it was my first time at Putnam today and yesterday I didn't think it was difficult either...

Grand Prix Legends. You can find most any course in the world for that one... including the new Barber Motosports Park.

I don't think a video game will help a heck of alot.

Nope, not a bit... don't waste your time. :)

F355 challenge, in the arcade. Probably the most realistic driving game ever created.

Larry

Games can help so much, you need to get your hands on the real thing

SportsCarGT for PC with steering wheel and pedals... I always drive the PTG BMW M3 at Road Atlanta and Laguna Seca (probably the only way i'll ever get to drive those tracks :( ).

F1 2002 with the GTR2002 mod, Grand Prix Legends, and Sports Car GT are all great simulators. But they are only good for one thing.....getting to know the tracks. Driving the track is a hole different story.

Games can help so much, you need to get your hands on the real thing

Games - cheap
Real Thing - $$$$$$$$$$$$

Playing a game is beneficial in the real world for only the first 2-3 touring laps you take around a track. At that point, you've got to find real visual references and cues for driving it. It does at least give you an idea of which way the track turns, etc. You won't learn anything about actually driving a car and/or track, as driving requires you to be connected and able to "feel" what the car is doing. I say this, because I know a lot of excellent race car drivers who can't drive computer simulations for crap.

My 10 year old cousin regularly beats me in ANY racing game. :mad:

Racing games don't help really help you learn anything

Sorry, guys. I totally disagree with all of you on this one. You're not being very open minded.

Yes, of course nothing can replace real seat time on a real track in a real car... but for those of us who aren't doing W2W racing every weekend, there's no better way to keep you skills sharp than driving in a simulated racing environment. You can learn a lot.

Fighter Pilots use sim training all the time. Why can't racers?

Originally posted by ceegeezM3
You can learn a lot.

Got any examples? I haven't been able to transfer anything from any of the games I've played, except for the general layout of the track configuration and a few visual cues.

Fighter Pilots use sim training all the time. Why can't racers?

Because racers don't have sim trainers that really mimic the actual circumstances. Fighter sims mimic the feel, surroundings, temperature, etc, etc, etc. Sitting in front of your computer in shorts and a t-shirt, in your 72 degree home, looking at the computer screen, and using a plastic wheel and pedal set isn't exactly "real". Fighter simulations move and change their attitude to provide the "feel" that is missing from a racing game. If you can't feel the backend stepping out, you can't learn to react to it out of instinct. Not to mention, that even the best commercially available simulations don't truly simulate the performance capablities of a given car and/or track.

Now, if you were to have some engineers build a simulation like fighter pilots use, I'd say there would be plenty to be gained. Give me a cockpit of 130 degrees, a 360 degree view, attitude changes that mimic cornering and accel/decel G's, tire sounds, pavement changes, etc. Fortunately, race cars don't cost as much to run as fighter jets, and teams can learn a lot more for less $$ by actually taking the car to the track

When my 10 year old cousin and all his friends can drive a race car on a simulation better than I can, that sends up a big red flag in my mind.

You're still not being very open minded about using different tools to improve your game. Sims can not only teach you a new track, but also car control, car setup theory, and the hundreds of different situations you'll find yourself in during a real track session. Starts, passing, driving off line, etc. Not to mention the concentration and patience you'll learn.
I don't know how much mental training you do, but any good athlete will tell you that visualizing different situations and all the possible scenarios involved (like fighter pilots) is a key to staying in the zone. If visualization works so well, then sims can only be that much better.

Got any examples?
Yeah... Me. I've been doing sims for 10 years, and I KNOW they have made a huge difference in my ability to drive at the limit. I'm a consistent front runner at nat'l level autox events, and have some very respectable lap times at the tracks I go to.

Look, if you're doing W2W racing every other weekend, then I don't blame you for bashing sims. I would probably do the same. But most of us here aren't that fortunate, so we have to do 'wannabee' things like autox, DE's and Sims to learn how to drive fast. Why not use sims if you're not able to race for real???
That's like saying 'don't bother practicing, it won't help'.

Also, you're ideas about not 'being connected' and needing to have a full motion base to make a sim worth anything is far from the truth. The physics in certain sims are *very* realistic, and behave very much like a real car. I'm just talking about the 2 or 3 real sims out there, not play station/gt3 stuff.

To say that sims are worthless and don't waste your time, especially to someone who is just starting out and wants to learn how to drive a quickly as possible, is bad advise in my opinion.

as ceegeezM3 mentioned, I think games and sims can help you out with the theory part of car control and setup, as well as learning the basics of a track. keep in mind though, the usefulness is directly related to how good the simulation really is. You're still relying on a programmer to come up with the right relationship between adjusting your tire pressures, sway bars, and wings and their effect on the handling of the car.

that said, i've been a fan of racing sims for years, and only within the last 6 months or so of reading this board (and others) have i started to understand what all the camber/rebound/sway/etc settings on Sports Car GT actually do. I was pretty happy when I "fixed" the oversteer on my car. pretty basic, but still useful.

also, don't forget the familiarity with the controls. transitioning from a gamepad to a car is a massive step, but the reverse is also true. In a car, it's much easier to make minute adjustments, the gamepad just doesnt have the range of motion. You need to spend a lot of time just figuring out how to make your thumbs do all the work.

I think once you make that "thumb transition," a lot of your experience will carry over. For now, i have to assume that the reverse is also true. I'll let you know once I get some real driving experience.

Maybe if you get the most physically realistic game and the best controls for it, it might be some help. Otherwise you'd probably get more valuable experience riding a bicycle around.

Btw, there is a huge difference just in the visual processing of real 3D images vs. processing the illusion of 3D images in a computer-generated simulation. I'm one example of a person whose brain cannot properly "see" most computer generated 3D "worlds" as being realistic at all. Locating myself in computer-generated space is next to impossible for me, whereas in real life I'm much better than average at the same task.

And also, I have one friend who is excellent at video games, but it much worse than me at judging space in real life. He's always cringing telling me I'm going to hit something when I can easily see I am going to miss it with inches to spare.

So in that sense, I think video games can give certain people a false sense of proficiency at the real-life task they are playing in the game.

I improved a lot by driving on simulators. GT3 has great physics (for a game) engine. The cars behave very closely to the real thing (except for braking). I even tuned the Bimmer there to match my setup and the virtual car was "scarily" similar to drive. :D

But you have to use pedals and steering wheel to learn properly, not the controller. Also, if you noticed, with the pedals all you do is 100% left foot braking. :buttrock The skill that helped me to very easily adapt to the go-karts. :dunno

GT4 is coming out this Winter, with even more realistic driving setup...:)

Bryan,
If I lived closer to a "real" track or could afford a DE every month, I would have no desire to simulate the experience as a PC game. Heck, if I had the extra $$$ laying around, I would even consider getting a nice go-kart and racing that W2W! hopefully someday I will.

I am pretty new to track events and auto racing, so I have PLENTY of room to learn. I am reading some books, doing some autoX, and have taken a tracktime school at Road America already this year. I agree there is no replacement for actual seat time, but if there is anything I can do while not at the track to improve my driving abilities, I am open to it. Maybe you are such a good driver and know these tracks so well that you would not benefit from a driving simulator.

I'm not looking for just any stupid game to drive around for fun, but something that might actually prepare me if possible.

Thanks everybody for your input. I will check out the mentioned titles! :-)

So what's the best wheel/pedal setup for, say, Playstation 2?

And what's the best gaming platform for racing games (arcade NOT included)?

i agree with the sims help driving theory. for example, back in school, i had driven fsae cars for a year, and wasn't all that fast. i went on co-op during a semester, and to pass the time at on many nights, i would play gp2, with a wheel/pedal setup. i came back in spring, got in the fsae car and was immediately faster.

as for the best setup, at hot import nights, apc had a rig with some wheels and pedals and a sparco seat. apc and hot import nights jokes aside, a variotion of that, i think, would be ideal. get a real sparco wheel, fit it to your favorite force-feedback wheel, make some full scale pedals - setup the brake to be pressure sensitive using a strain gauge so you can get "feel" and play a sim. wire that to the guts of the pedal setup off the controller.

pc and gpl or ps2 and gt3 (and soon gt4) is probably the best.

OMG. I'm sorry but those of you who think a sim can do anything but prepare you for where the track goes just haven't had enough seat time on a real track. Once again Bryan is spot on. Surprise surprise.

And for those talking about the costs of real racing or even DEs, you're totally missing the point. The question asked was if sims could really help. It was not a question of evaluating the experience for the buck. Personally, I say ditch the game and put the money towards a kart. :D

I'm with Bryan completely (also no surprise). It will tell you the lay of the land and where the track goes, but until your ass is in the seat driving flat out towards a wall at 100 mph and you have to have total confidence in your brakes, you just won't understand. Or how about a nice wiggle along the front "straight" at Texas Motor Speedway at 120 mph as you lift to enter the chicane. No PC sim is going to prepare you for that, I don't care how real the visual image. Until your ass is on the line, it just won't compute.

As for learning the effect of different set-ups..... Perhaps. But the computer is in an ideal world. Try chasing a set-up in the real world of parts with wear, chassis that flex, etc.

I've driven the Ferrari F355 sim and it doesn't even come close to the real thing. Sorry gang. The only thing I got out of it was learning where the track went at Long Beach.

Or how about a nice wiggle along the front "straight" at Texas Motor Speedway at 120 mph as you lift to enter the chicane.

BTDT... yawn.

You're guys are still totally missing the point. Because of the time I've spent on a sim, I was able to keep my car under control when I got that first wiggle into T1 at 120mph. Without some offline practice, I'd have probably been in the wall.

I'm sure all you W2W hotdogs are the next Michael Schumacher, but for those people who would like to know what it's like before taking their car to a real track, sims are the best place to start.

Originally posted by ceegeezM3
You're guys are still totally missing the point. Because of the time I've spent on a sim, I was able to keep my car under control when I got that first wiggle into T1 at 120mph. Without some offline practice, I'd have probably been in the wall.


:bs:

I'm sure all you W2W hotdogs are the next Michael Schumacher, but for those people who would like to know what it's like before taking their car to a real track, sims are the best place to start. [/B][/QUOTE]

:laugh

Found a pretty interesting story about a test to see if using racing simulators can actually make a difference in the real world.

http://www.hyperstimulator.com/home_units/news/2000/vail_ff_day.html

ceegeez - I'm not trying to imply you are an idiot by saying you are wrong any more than you are trying to say I'm an idiot by saying I'm wrong. Simply color me not convinced that a race car simulator designed for entertainment purposes in which my pre-pubescent cousin can outdrive me provides any real world application in actual driving skills or car control. I readily admit it can help with increasing situational awareness and reflexes (but so can Mario Cart), but certainly not real world car control or race craft. The techniques used in a racing sim aren't the same you use to drive a race car in my experience.

We can agree to disagree, but don't come off trying to make me look like a jerk for disagreeing with you. I'm no more stubborn in my argument than you are in yours. We can both have our own opinions, and neither of us be jerks, even if the conversation is a little heated. My opinion is just more right than yours. :)

I bet somebody could make a racing game or simulator that could be close enough to provide a decent amount of usefulness.

Originally posted by Hornswoggler
I bet somebody could make a racing game or simulator that could be close enough to provide a decent amount of usefulness.

Because actually driving a car is based so much on seat of the pants instinct and feel, if a sim were made that mimicked real life absolutely, it would be impossible to actually drive. So much of what you see when you drive is in your peripheral or "sensed" that a flat computer screen simply can't recreate it. I'm not looking directly at my braking marker when I hit my brakes, but it's in my field of vision. And, I'm not looking at the car on my bumper or my rear quarter, but I can feel it there and sense it through sound, sight, and even smell. I don't see the car pointing 3-5 degrees opposite where the steering wheel is turned, but I feel the slip angle and balance the car there with my hands and both feet. I don't need the rear end to actually step out to know I've reached the limit of adhesion as I exit a corner, because I can feel it without crossing the line. I'm not convinced any of that can be accomplished in a sim, and if not, I'm not convinced that a sim can really teach you anything of much importance with regard to actual driving technique and car control. In fact, I think there could be real danger in assuming things that happen in sims apply to real situations if you try to translate things directly.

I bet somebody could make a racing game or simulator that could be close enough to provide a decent amount of usefulness.

Hornswoggler, your wish has been granted! Check out Grand Prix Legends at http://www.papy.com/gpl/gpl.index.html.
One of the most popular sims ever produced. It may be a little hard to find (try ebay) because it's a few years old, but defintely worth it. :)

And just for fun, check out some of these simulator cockpits...
http://www.hyperstimulator.com/home_units/F1Hypers/f1.html

Don't worry... sims aren't as dangerous as some people might think. ; ) Give 'em a try.

Thanks Chris. I am obviously open to the idea since I was the one to start this thread :-)

I think we can ALL agree that NOTHING beats actual seat time.

I did not intend this to be a flame war. Simulations may work for some, but not others. I figured since quite a few other things can be *somewhat* simulated, why not auto racing? I'm open to the idea ;-)

OMG. Buy a kart and go real racing. You'll learn more in one season that 5 racing cars and 100 racing sims. I'll bet I sold my old kart (will a killer engine needing a rebuild - about $400) for less than that fancy sim cockpit costs. That sim cockpit cannot reproduce the feel of the car. As Bryan said, you feel the car and see in 3D. I even like to drive with my seat reclined more than most because I can feel the car more that way.

Sims can be fun. They can teach you where the course goes. They can improve hand-eye coordination and situation awareness. But Bryan is 100% correct. You cannot learn racecraft from a sim. On a sim you cannot feel one wheel lock up under braking like you can in the real world.

I would use a sim to learn a track (where it goes). That's about it.

Now, if you want to sim set-ups, let's talk 7 post shaker rigs. :) A very good friend of mine does the programming on them. That and data acquisition. In fact, he's worked with the Ferrari and Toyota F1 teams and Ross Brawn even calls him at his office. Totally cool stuff. It ain't no computer game though.

Dale Earnhardt Jr's opinion

http://www.nascar.com/2002/news/opinion/rodman/05/13/rodman_column/

Originally posted by Hornswoggler
I did not intend this to be a flame war. Simulations may work for some, but not others. I figured since quite a few other things can be *somewhat* simulated, why not auto racing? I'm open to the idea ;-)

There is no doubt that auto racing can be simulated. The question is one of what can be learned from consumer products.

If you can't afford a 7 post shaker rig (who can?) I'd suggest you'll learn more from reading one of the late Carroll Smith's great books. Of for what a sim and one of those fancy seats costs you can buy a kart and learn way more than the average bear. And if you don't want to take my word for it, take Ayrton Senna's, or Michael Schumacher's, or Paul Tracy's, or.......

And if you want to learn balance and coordination (very important for a racer), you'll learn more from many sports, or better yet, a martial art, or even better yet (believe it or not), ballet.

A well rounded racer will do all of the above. Try juggling, or unicycling (or both at the same time) if you want to really learn what balance is.

Most racers have heard about how Senna use to drive an entire race in his mind, visualizing every possible situation, every lap, every gear shift. Then he'd go do something else for a while, then sit down and visualize the whole race again. This is what made him special, he could get so immersed in The Zone and stay there for an entire race. Mental programming is invaluable.

Getting a kart and racing it is a dream most of us would love to do, but can't for one reason or another. Money, Family obligations, wife would strangle you, no track within 500 miles.... :) Good advise, but not exactly practical for a guy with 3 kids and a mortgage.

Do whatever you have to do, but don't ever give up or get discouraged when someone who's 'been there' tells you your ideas are stupid.

Originally posted by ceegeezM3
Getting a kart and racing it is a dream most of us would love to do, but can't for one reason or another. Money, Family obligations, wife would strangle you, no track within 500 miles.... :) Good advise, but not exactly practical for a guy with 3 kids and a mortgage.

Fully understood.

My real point was that for the price of one of the sim seats you could probably find a kart that would be better than most beginning racers for a full season. It's something some folks never stop to think about.

Here's another one. I've seen SCCA IT cars and Spec RX-7s with a log book for sale for less than some people here spend just on wheels and tires.

I'm not trying to be elitest here. Sometimes we don't stop, sit down, and consider all alternatives. I found out the hard way. For what my last kart cost when I bought it new (new everything including a killer engine package) in 1989, I could have bought an IT car with a logbook. DOH!

As someone who has wanted to race my whole life and for one reason or another couldn't see myself making the leap, I look back now and realize I could have done a lot more had I really looked into it. My business partner (and owner of the Sentra SE-R I've been racing in ITS) has been developing his car slowly over the last 3-4 years. He first took it out in virtually SS trim. But he got out there.

Anyway, for those of you who would like to get out there, you might find it's more possible than you first think. Sometimes we can be good at talking ourselves out of something for crazy reasons. Sorry, I've wandered into a different conversation. :)

You do know that for Gran Turismo 1, 2, and 3, all the cars' handling profiles were based on driving the cars at the track? Road and Track ran an article about comparing the NSX in the game to the real NSX and found them to be very similar. If Montoya plays it between races, that's enough endorsement for me :lol:

stjobs

Originally posted by stjobs
If Montoya plays it between races, that's enough endorsement for me :lol:

I play sims between races too, to familiarize myself with tracks and because they are fun. That doesn't make them a tool to learn car control.

Whether the cars really are accurate or not still doesn't change the fact that you can't learn proper reactions for car control. Proper reactions take place before a situation goes bad based on what you feel, whereas you can only react to what you see on a computer screen after the fact. After the fact is too late in real life.

It appears that racers and wannbees are very opinionated...go figure? hehehe... :-)


P.S. I am a wannabee(track rat) so don't take that comment the wrong way...Okaaaa...

After reading all of the above, my conclusion is that a good combination of both is the best thing to do.

There's no harm in playing racing sims like F1 2002/GTR 2003. At most you'll sort of understand what different settings affect the car. At the very least you'll learn how a certain course goes.

Not many people are going to spend thousands of dollars on racing sim setups like the one mentioned in this thread. Most people are going to be in their chairs in their shorts with a wheel/pedals. So you can't compare the cost of that and the cost of a kart setup for the majority of sim players out there.

When I first started playing sims like Ferrari 355 Challenge and F1 2001, I had no experience with driving a real car on a real track. Then I started going to some auto-x's and time trials and got some instruction, which actually helped me improve in my games. lol Then I spent more time playing games for the few weeks in between track events. Then I went back to the track and worked on my real world skills some more.

My belief is that to be a good driver is to practice every opportunity you get, and for me that includes "driving the line" on the street and highways (staying in my own lane, mind you!), practicing my heel-toe on every corner, rev-matching on every down shift, looking in my mirrors and judging the speed of other cars at every lane change/overtaking opportuniy, the list goes on.

In the end it's the brain that controls your hands and feet. If playing racing sims helps my brain stay in driving mode, I believe it is a great thing to have and to do.

Originally posted by Kenzo
It appears that racers and wannbees are very opinionated...go figure? hehehe... :-)

Opinionated? Me? Heck, my 8th grade teachers nicknamed me "Stub", short for Stubborn over 10 years ago. :)

Originally posted by snk328is
In the end it's the brain that controls your hands and feet. If playing racing sims helps my brain stay in driving mode, I believe it is a great thing to have and to do.

Spot on. I've not taken issue with anything other than sims being unable to teach actual car control skills.

As I just read in one of my racing books (while looking for some info for another thread) last night...if you don't react to the car until you can actually see that it's out of shape, it's already too late...you're either already in the wall, off the track, or going way too slow.

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Opinionated? Me? Heck, my 8th grade teachers nicknamed me "Stub", short for Stubborn over 10 years ago. :)






Perfect, from this point forward Bryan will be known as "Stub".

Stub Watts the Race Car Driver.

Sounds good!

NASCAR...but good!

But what about the chicks?!?

Not good...

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Spot on. I've not taken issue with anything other than sims being unable to teach actual car control skills.

Same here.

But what about the chicks?!?..... stub watts also learned at an early age that size *does* matter:(

:biglaughb
j/k:stickoutt

Originally posted by snk328is
My belief is that to be a good driver is to practice every opportunity you get, and for me that includes "driving the line" on the street and highways (staying in my own lane, mind you!), practicing my heel-toe on every corner, rev-matching on every down shift...

Heh.

How many sim players heel-toe on the sim?

Originally posted by Kenzo
But what about the chicks?!?

Not good...

I guess I better hope chicks dig race car drivers? :laugh :laugh

Good one Kenzo. :wave:

Originally posted by Geo31
Heh.

How many sim players heel-toe on the sim?

Hey, it's SMG all the way. :biglaughb :biglaughb

But left-foot braking is ever present.

I tried heel-toeing on F1 2002 but there's no neutral zone when paddle shifting (unless you shift all the way down and that's pointless) so it really doesn't help. Left foot braking is the way to go in racing sims.

Originally posted by snk328is
I tried heel-toeing on F1 2002 but there's no neutral zone when paddle shifting (unless you shift all the way down and that's pointless) so it really doesn't help. Left foot braking is the way to go in racing sims.

Bingo.

Not exactly real world for those w/o an SMG.

Yeah but it's good to practice left foot brakin', eh? ;)

edit: I wish somebody would make force feedback pedals.

Here's what you need:

http://www.bobearlracing.com/

The kind of car sim most of us can afford is obviously not going to be able to teach someone every last thing about driving fast, but there's a lot more to it than it just being a way to learn which way the road turns next. You should be able to get very close to the best line and come close to the right braking points, etc, with a sim like GT3. You can learn a lot more about line with a game like this than you can reading some book; better yet, the two can work together far better than either alone. There's no substitute for getting in a car and driving, but this stuff can surely help.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that will help me justify purchase of my own virtual racing chassis from bob earl, but so it goes.

Watch out, document! you are about to be flamed by some racing elite here that will tell you "Seat time or No time!".

Actually, I appreciate everybody's replies (even the ones against the idea of using simulators), but when they DON'T SHUT UP after getting their point across, it gets a little tiring.

What works for some people may not work for others.

Actually, it is possible to heal and toe in some games. Both the GTR Mod for F1 2002 (awesome by the way), N2003, and GPL allow H&T, and along with others, both Act Labs Performance Pedals or BRD's Speed 7 have a clutch. The speed 7's are made of aluminum and can be configured to match the pedal setup in a real car (no plastic here). You can at least use the EA F1/Mods to remember "In a spin, both feet in" as properly setup you have to use the clutch to keep from stalling.

Of course the above mentioned Speed 7 pedals cost as much as a weekend at the track ;)

I think a point worth noting is that what goes on in a good racing game (GT3) is more than what you visually see. If you play the game for a few hours and have any sort of reflexes, you will find that you can feel what the car is about to do without actually watching a reference point on the screen to check if you are sliding. You just have to forget that you are watching a TV and get into it - then the reactions of the car become more like intuition than a sentient response. It takes that kind of thought process to be successful at the game...

stjobs

Hand down...F355 is the most realistic sim driving game

but keep in mind..a game is a game...it is still far away from the real thing...but it's just the best sim game out there.

As far as preparing u for track....well it does tell you to follow a clean line...etc etc so the basics are learned....but u still need to get seat time..otherwise the game is only gonna take you so far..

I play 355 a lot becayuse it's fun...not because it can make me drive faster on the real track...the truth is...taking a corner at 135mph is much easier in a game than in real life =)

I recently fabbed up a clutch assembly, and use it for f12002/GT2002/SCR2002, and it works AMAZING!!! Total price was $20 which $15 went to a usb adapter!

I had an OLD original thrustmaster wheel/pedal nascar set in the closet. So I decided to make a little project and designa clutch. Basically I took the Brake pedal from the spare assembly and made it independent of everything else, as well as making a control box for the buttons that are normally on the wheel. It controls brake Bias, LCD display, and Pit call...it attaches to this new nascar pro 2 wheel i picked up for $40 and it works AWESOME! I had to modify the potentiometer on the pedal, and made it its own custom independant controller in windows. Thw clutch is sensitive enough now that i can slip the clutch in the game, and it feel like my VW :)

Also since these are simulator games, if you stall the cars in the game, there is no refire button, instead you have to catch the car before it stops (i.e. rolling) and you pop the clutch into a gear, and the car fires back up, its pretty sick.

If anyone wants more detailed instructions on how to make this "ghetto" but very realistic clutch assembly, I'll take some
pics tonight and explain it to whoever wants to know. I had a lot of soldering and calibrating of the potentiometers, but it came out awesome, and now its a great simulator setup! I even modified the paddles on the wheel so they felt more like a real life paddle shifter, then a peice of plastic game.

Simulators have TONS of use for practice, obviously not as much as the real thing, but it greatly increases your reaction times, and is a great way to mapout a track to get you accustomed to the environment and landmarks on the track.

The simulator I'm waiting for........

West Racing - "Racing Legends" (http://www.west-racing.com/racing.htm)

I had a chance to play for hours on a beta game Sega was designing 4 years ago, now everyone knows the game to be the 3 screen 355 challenge, however we had a chance to test the japanese Beat version, which had some features the current version does not. We got to lay for HOURS for free. This was at a national ferrari meet in Atlanta. It was setup in our hotel while we had the concours going on outside.

The game was being tested and monitored constantly. After EVERY game, data was collected and changes were being made to the game by its personal programmer. he told us the game had 16 MILLION lines of code! The game was amazing, and after playing it, i have never seen anything like it. They wanted $75000 for thr prototype, considering the final version turned out to now have as many features, most likely because they were too fragile for kids to use in arcades. The beta version i used was similar to the current version, but several things changed.

The company that makes the "Speed 7" wheels/pedals also does some amazing corporate event work all over thr world, simply amazing when they use actual super touring cars as the simulator :)

But for the price of these simulators you can get a real racecar and in some cases enough extra money to pay for a full season at the track, HAHA.

Always try to do the real thing first, nothing beats seat time, but if the circumstances don't let you, unless you develop bad habits on simulators (which is possible) they do no harm really, only inprove your hand/eye reflexes.