Variable vane turbos.......

[M_US_E30]

Why are there no variable vane turbos in the tuning market yet?

T

[Def]

Probably comes down to cost.

[Depape]

Yeap to expensive.
and the most avalible VTG turbos are all diesel applications. The vane packs most likely can't handle the heat. And the electronic actuators might be a B**** to control. Pneumatic wouldn't be that bad...it'd be just like a waste gate.

[Hova]

Yeap to expensive.
and the most avalible VTG turbos are all diesel applications. The vane packs most likely can't handle the heat. And the electronic actuators might be a B**** to control. Pneumatic wouldn't be that bad...it'd be just like a waste gate.


Porsche has variable turbines....



im sure there a bitch to tune, and probably cost factor as well.


controlling the precise angle of 40-50 fins while they are on a disk spinning at 100,000+ rpm, and over 3,000 degrees isnt exactly easy to do :rofl

[gstuning]

There are two types out there
Garretts Vane type and Holsets Variable Geometry Turbine.

The problem with the VGT from Holset is that it get´s coked up from the diesel.
It takes temps fine cause 30psi and 350hp up a hill in a 3tonn truck does produce some high EGT´s for a very long period of time.

Also controlling them requires advanced strategy.
They will be around soon enough in petrol applications.

[obnoxious2]

I was reading about Porsche's engineers talking about the variable turbos a couple of years back when it was being applied to the 911 turbo and they said the biggest challenge was the heat as diesel engines don't rev as high so there is less heat to worry about.

I believe they said they used some kind of superduper high heat resistance that is used in aerospace

[gstuning]

Titanium?
I´ve got it straight from Holset that they consider their turbine housings to be less then optimal for petrol use because of the casting iron composition used.
i.e prolonged heat will wear the housing out.
While I can´t remember anybody having issues with running any level of boost on any Holset I´ve seen or read about.

Titanium for compressor wheels is very usual now in the diesel industry for engine setups that require upwards of 3bar boost or more. Not sure if titanium is usually used for turbine wheels.

[5mall5nail5]

i.e prolonged heat will wear the housing out.

:confused

I think the seals and bearings/chra is more likely to "wear out" than a cast iron exhaust housing

[M_US_E30]

To an engine management engineer (NOTE: I said engineer not tuner), it cannot be that much more difficult to tune than dual vanos with DBW?

Does anyone know of a site where the diesel truck guys are talking about these?

T

[Johnbennett103]

I have a variable vane Aerodyne turbo from Mech Tech for M50/52 and S50/52. I used it on my M3 sedan. It is a little small for a 3.2 liter, but works great for 2.5 liter. Virtually no lag, and great low end torque. Disadvantage is the top end is limited, especially on larger engines. I would be willing to sell it, so contact me if you want to see pics. I also have a crappy cast iron manifold that goes with it.

[M_US_E30]

I have a variable vane Aerodyne turbo from Mech Tech for M50/52 and S50/52. I used it on my M3 sedan. It is a little small for a 3.2 liter, but works great for 2.5 liter. Virtually no lag, and great low end torque. Disadvantage is the top end is limited, especially on larger engines. I would be willing to sell it, so contact me if you want to see pics. I also have a crappy cast iron manifold that goes with it.

What are you using to control it?

PM me.

T

http://www.rzevski.net/pdf/03%20IGC%20Paper.pdf

T

[mattym3]

I have a variable vane Aerodyne turbo from Mech Tech for M50/52 and S50/52. I used it on my M3 sedan. It is a little small for a 3.2 liter, but works great for 2.5 liter. Virtually no lag, and great low end torque. Disadvantage is the top end is limited, especially on larger engines. I would be willing to sell it, so contact me if you want to see pics. I also have a crappy cast iron manifold that goes with it.
I also have the same setup sitting in my garage. THE Aerocharger. Same on my S50 lots of bottom end but no top end. Actually i picked the car up off of John years ago. Hey John how are things going with your current car? I remeber you had a 318i with an S52. I recently purchased a M52 and a S52 crank for my GT42R build up.

[gstuning]

:confused

I think the seals and bearings/chra is more likely to "wear out" than a cast iron exhaust housing

I think it´s just their excuse to not have done anything for the aftermarket or try and keep away from it, BW just recently started getting in.
I´ve not seen/read about any difference in the CHRA between diesel turbo´s and petrol turbos.

[SHARKBITEATTACK]

Cost. Look at all the supra guys who ditch the sequential twin turbo set up in favor of a ginormous single turbo.

[5mall5nail5]

Cost. Look at all the supra guys who ditch the sequential twin turbo set up in favor of a ginormous single turbo.

There's more to that decision than just cost. There are plenty of guys running twin big turbos over there as well - a single turbo supra is typically a drag supra and not everyone builds a drag supra.

[Johnbennett103]

Matt,

It has been a few years. I am now running a top-mount GT35R. I am only running 10psi until I can lower compression and get a good tune. You are going to build some serious HP with that GT42R. Your engine already has forged pistons, but you will probably want better rods. Talk to George K at ICS if you want good professional help. Let me know what happens with your project.

[ride1099]

I have a variable vane Aerodyne turbo from Mech Tech for M50/52 and S50/52. I used it on my M3 sedan. It is a little small for a 3.2 liter, but works great for 2.5 liter. Virtually no lag, and great low end torque. Disadvantage is the top end is limited, especially on larger engines. I would be willing to sell it, so contact me if you want to see pics. I also have a crappy cast iron manifold that goes with it.


Hey guys, I work at Aerocharger/Hiperformance where we manufacture the Aerocharger line of turbos in house. The Aerodyne turbo is an old, out dated version of the modern Aerocharger. Most of our applications are snowmobiles, motorcycles, ATVs, even military applications. However we just recently started to get back into the automotive market. We, with the talented guys down the street at House of Boost built a twin-Aerocharged Pontiac G8 (Holden anybody?) you can check the car out here. (http://www.houseofboost.com/) The car put down a low 11-second ET at ~130mph with just turbos, exhaust, and a tune.

We have quite a few other applications in mind for the very near future including Hyabusa, next-gen Camaro, Porsche 930, and drift car kits. However we are considering many other applications as well, one of which I've been putting together some ideas for: Bimmers!

Onto the turbo design:

http://aerocharger.com/images/VATN%20Animation.gif
http://aerocharger.com/images/66%20Turbo%20Cut-A-Way%201_small.jpg

The Aerocharger 2.0 has proven to be the fastest spooling turbo in the world for a number of reasons. One of the biggest advantages the Aerocharger has over every other turbo on the market is the bearing oiling system. First of all the turbo's lubrication system is completely self contained. This is ideal for those turboing an NA application as they will not have to deal with supplying oil to their new toy. Second the bearing is misted, not flooded. This means the absolute minimum rolling resistance = 100% of the power is transferred to the compressor wheel from the turbine wheel. This could loosely be compared the fact that it takes power to make power with a supercharger. This also means that there is no need for a turbo timer either. The super-low resistance/drag on the bearing means that the turbo winds down on it's own when you shut the motor down. It's like having a turbo timer but only your turbo is running for a few minutes after you park, not your motor. Cold starts & hot shut-downs are no longer an issue.

Bearing drag comparison chart:
http://aerocharger.com/images/bearing%20drag.gif

Vane design:
http://aerocharger.com/images/Picture1.gif
Identical to the Porsche design but ours has been around much longer :cool The difference is our turbos don't require wastegates or boost controllers. Everything is under the command of the turbo controller itself (what would be the boost actuator on internal wastegate turbos). The controller directly adjusts the vanes and can be changed by a wide selection of springs to fit your boost needs.

Here's how boost builds in comparison to other forced induction methods
http://aerocharger.com/images/boost.gif

I could go on for days about these turbos, you really have to experience them first hand to fully appreciate the difference compared to other turbos. The difference is night and day.

Check out more info, compressor maps, available trims, etc. on our site: AEROCHARGER (http://aerocharger.com/technology.htm)

[obnoxious2]

Okay so your aerocharger turbo spools the fastest but how about making horsepower throughout the whole rev range? Cause I remember HPF saying how they tested a BB turbo as opposed to their journal and they lost 25rwhp while only gaining a spoolage of 200rpm.

[highboostingm3]

Hey guys, I work at Aerocharger/Hiperformance where we manufacture the Aerocharger line of turbos in house. The Aerodyne turbo is an old, out dated version of the modern Aerocharger. Most of our applications are snowmobiles, motorcycles, ATVs, even military applications. However we just recently started to get back into the automotive market. We, with the talented guys down the street at House of Boost built a twin-Aerocharged Pontiac G8 (Holden anybody?) you can check the car out here. (http://www.houseofboost.com/) The car put down a low 11-second ET at ~130mph with just turbos, exhaust, and a tune.

WTF? OMG I love you! PM me your email now! I had the Mechtech Motorsports turbo kit originally with the Aerocharger and I loved it until I needed more power. We really need to talk. OMG I thought the founder died and then the company died with him. This is unbelievable! HOLY SHITBALLS! :eyecrazy :worship:

OH MY F-ING GOD! :eek2

[camshaft]

lol looks like Christmas came early for you Cam. I'm picturing you like you looked in your old drivers license but with your eyes really wide and your mouth hanging.

Austin

[loustylez]

HOLY SHITBALLS!
i'd say that just about sums it up.

[Shuasha]

Any specs on the turbos? Maps?

[5mall5nail5]

WTF? OMG I love you! PM me your email now! I had the Mechtech Motorsports turbo kit originally with the Aerocharger and I loved it until I needed more power. We really need to talk. OMG I thought the founder died and then the company died with him. This is unbelievable! HOLY SHITBALLS! :eyecrazy :worship:

OH MY F-ING GOD! :eek2

cam...

prozac... srs.

[Vader M3]

We, with the talented guys down the street at House of Boost built a twin-Aerocharged Pontiac G8 (Holden anybody?) you can check the car out here. (http://www.houseofboost.com/) The car put down a low 11-second ET at ~130mph with just turbos, exhaust, and a tune.

this is the exact car I was thinking when I saw this thread. Saw it dyno at MKC a few weeks ago, fastest spooling 600whp car I've ever seen outside a Viper GTS. very impressive to say the least..

[ride1099]

this is the exact car I was thinking when I saw this thread. Saw it dyno at MKC a few weeks ago, fastest spooling 600whp car I've ever seen outside a Viper GTS. very impressive to say the least..

What's up Pablo? It's Collin from Imagine, haven't seen you since we dyno'd the Supra.



Any specs on the turbos? Maps?

Specs and maps can be found here (http://aerocharger.com/sizing_the_turbo.htm)

[GGray]

i have an old Garrett VNT 25 turbo sitting in my shop. Carol Shelby helped Garrett make one back in the late 80's. They put them on some cars mainly the SHelby CSX shadow (if you can remember that one) Then they put them on some other cars and vans. The goal back then was to try to mimic a larger engine with the torque output. The problem was the amount of heat in the turbo would kill the VNT fairly fast. It was so bad they ended up repacing all the VNT units with standard T25's under warrenty... My Father worked at Garrett through the mess it cost dodge and garrett a ton of money!

The controller for it was very simple. It looks like a external waste gate with a few extra ports on it to feed pressure from both sides. It basically would balance out the pressure from one side to the other effectivly holding the same boost. I was going to stick it on a VW I had back in the day but never did. It was sized to work with 1.8-2.5 liter motors..

I'll go get some pictures of it and put up when I get back from running around this morning...

I keep thinking remote mounting it in my VW truck would be cool and keep the heat down in the unit:cool

[antonch]

How is this unit cooled if the oil system is self sustained?

[GGray]

Here are the pictures of my Garret VNT25 turbo, You can see from the picture how simple it is to actually control the VNT. The VNT actuator is a modified wastegate controller. The lever that normally controls the wastegate controls the VNT portion and is running through the backside of the exhauset housing. No waste gate of any type is needed or used.

I plan to remote mount it in my VW truck with the 2.0 16v motor and run a huge oil cooler to supply the turbo with cool oil in an effort to keep it alive. The main problem they encountered was in an engine bay the turbo just got too hot and cooked itself to death.

Diesels can use them becasue the EGT's are lower. Porsche uses ceramics in theirs to help with the heat problems. In Europe you can get more ceramic in turbos than in the states. Have no clue why. Back when my father was a rep you could actually get full ceramic wheeled and bearing turbos in Europe that the EPA/DOT would not apporve for US use...

[ride1099]

How is this unit cooled if the oil system is self sustained?

Because the oil is only misting the bearing instead of flooding it, oil temps are kept way down compared to conventional turbos.


I plan to remote mount it in my VW truck with the 2.0 16v motor and run a huge oil cooler to supply the turbo with cool oil in an effort to keep it alive. The main problem they encountered was in an engine bay the turbo just got too hot and cooked itself to death.

You would be much better off with an Aerocharger in that scenario. Remote mount turbo designs have many draw backs. One being spooling, which fortunately won't be a huge issue for you with that turbo, but the other main issue is oil supply.

Another reason why our turbos are self contained. The applications are near limitless.

[ritoab]

what's the most HP you can produce off a single Aerocharger and a Dual setup?

[5mall5nail5]

Because the oil is only misting the bearing instead of flooding it, oil temps are kept way down compared to conventional turbos.

My concern is that there is overall less mass in these aerochargers yet there's the same amount of interface with the engines exhaust. I wouldn't be concerned with the amount of oil interfacing with the CHRA (or whatever it would be called on an aerocharger) but rather the fact that the entire unit is smaller and thus has less heatsinking.

[ride1099]

what's the most HP you can produce off a single Aerocharger and a Dual setup?

With the 66000 turbo you can get ~340hp, dual setups over 600hp. Check out this page (http://aerocharger.com/other_application.htm) to see some twin setups.


My concern is that there is overall less mass in these aerochargers yet there's the same amount of interface with the engines exhaust. I wouldn't be concerned with the amount of oil interfacing with the CHRA (or whatever it would be called on an aerocharger) but rather the fact that the entire unit is smaller and thus has less heatsinking.

Again the design of the bearing has a major part in controlling heat. The entire bearing assembly is in front of the compressor wheel, on the cool side of the turbo. On top of that the front of the compressor housing itself is the oil reservoir. There is also a heat shield built into the wall of the turbine housing.

Here's a cutaway of an older Aerocharger to show the bearing
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a117/drive_95bd/img1230597707286.jpg

[highboostingm3]

Damnit! In my next life I want to do a twin Aerocharger setup for 900hp.

[ritoab]

With the 66000 turbo you can get ~340hp, dual setups over 600hp. Check out this page (http://aerocharger.com/other_application.htm) to see some twin setups.



Again the design of the bearing has a major part in controlling heat. The entire bearing assembly is in front of the compressor wheel, on the cool side of the turbo. On top of that the front of the compressor housing itself is the oil reservoir. There is also a heat shield built into the wall of the turbine housing.

Here's a cutaway of an older Aerocharger to show the bearing
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a117/drive_95bd/img1230597707286.jpg

This might be a stupid question or way to put it but if a single turbo could produce 600+rwhp it would sale like hotcakes or a single turbo that can exceed the limits of 300+rwhp. Is there any way you guys could manufactor a turbo like this for higher power outputs?

[highboostingm3]

This might be a stupid question or way to put it but if a single turbo could produce 600+rwhp it would sale like hotcakes or a single turbo that can exceed the limits of 300+rwhp. Is there any way you guys could manufactor a turbo like this for higher power outputs?
Not a stupid question at all. Just make it bigger Aerocharger people! :stickoutt I want one that will support 900whp. Hell I would buy that right now! They are probably looking for the proper market demand but if they go for the sport car turbo market a bit I think they will have all the demand they need. Especially from all the 4-banger guys who want that instant torque and spool that they can't get currently.

[ritoab]

Not a stupid question at all. Just make it bigger Aerocharger people! :stickoutt I want one that will support 900whp. Hell I would buy that right now! They are probably looking for the proper market demand but if they go for the sport car turbo market a bit I think they will have all the demand they need. Especially from all the 4-banger guys who want that instant torque and spool that they can't get currently.


Right on, there is a huge market out there for these types of turbos but guys like me and you need something more. Imagine this in a form of a single turbo that can product 900rwhp plus can spool the way it's been advertised. Personally, I want one so i can get ride of the long oil lines and scavenge pump mounted all the way in the back. If all i had to do is remove all those lines and no wastegate with a turbo that could instantly make say 600+rwhp but can produce 900rwhp. Boy O Boy O boy. LOL

Send me one just so i can test it out. I know you have a few used ones that you can not sell. Infact send me four of them and i will get the word out for you. Phones will ring off the hook. Nothing but ricers around me here. lol

[Keaton]

i'll help prototype a twin VGT for an M50/S50, just send me 2 and i'll document the hell out of my build and make 2 of every thing

[loustylez]

http://purplecrayon.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/jungle_book.jpg

[joeuser528e]

I remember reading about the aerocharger in "Maximum Boost". It's so much simpler to have a self-contained lubrication system, I searched everywhere but was unable to find any information relating to automotive applications. Even though I have long since bought a conventional turbo, I am still excited by the idea and I hope you guys do get into the automotive market.

[ritoab]

I have another project that i am about to assist a guy with so i need one of these turbos asap. Let me know.
Rito