I'm hooked. I went to my first driving school in May and I'm in big trouble. I am looking at getting a set of r-compound tires for the track. Any recommendations? I have been looking at the Toyo RA-1. What are the reviews on this tire. Also, is the sizing on the r-compound tires the same as street tires?

Thanks

Get these. STICKY!
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=Ecsta+V700&vehicleSearch=false&partnum=34WR7EV700HC&fromCompare1=yes

I'd probably just get some cheap, decent street tires if I were you. Once you use those up, you'd really be in a position to make full use of the r comps. I see people at the track with r compounds every time I go who are much slower than better drivers, in the same run groups, who are running street tires. If you're dead set on the stickies, though, then the RA-1s are probably good to start out on, from what I hear. They last well and will tolerate more abuse than a hoosier or kumho.

Agreed, stick with street tires for a while. You will learn more and get faster quicker on street tires.

Thanks for the information. It seems that there is two schools of thought on the track tires. Part of the reason is cost. In the long run it would be cheaper than blowing off a set of street tires every time that I would go to the driver's school. One question for both document and Pinecone: What is the thought process behind going quicker on street tires vs. r-compound? Your input is greatly appreciated for this rookie.

You don't need R compounds. If you know you are going to be doing a lot of DE, go ahead and get some. As you said, it will save your street rubber. But, do not buy them just because they will be quicker. Who cares? It's DE. Frank Williams won't be in the paddock with a contract and Bernie won't be issuing you a Superlicense.

DE is not racing so making your car as fast as possible is not necessary. Just work on your driving. I do one DE per year. I don't use R compounds. No need. We do use them when we're racing of course.

The one thing you need to do when you do DEs on street tires is not to over cook them. Don't get caught up in the red mist and get them so hot that you just chunk them up. Drive at 9/10 and take the occasional couple of laps at 8/10 or 7/10 during each session and you will save your tires just fine.

Don't forget that driving is about personal discipline and taking it easy when you should is just as important as being fast.

i'm not sure I would recommend *cheap* street tires.

Last DE weekend I was at, I spent Saturday on street tires, and sunday on RA-1's.

The street tires were ancient heat-cycled-to-hell 280 treadwear Nitto's. The sidewalls were soft, they were unpredictable... the car did not dive/squat/roll as much since I had less lateral grip to work with, thus less feedback from the car.

I ended up cording one and had to drive home on the spare (given, I was beating the crap out of them since they didn't have much tread left and i figured I'd be replacing them soon anyways).

Anyways, sidewall rigidity is important, and also consider what suspension you have. if it is aftermarket, street tires won't let you get as much feed back from it.

RA-1's are actually not that bad for learning since they make tons of noise at the limit and break away gradually (within reason). Though, some good street tires might be an even better option for learning. I've always felt happy with S03's for DE's. you wear the insides on the street, and the outsides at the track.

But these guys are also right... work on your skills before trying to make the car faster.

- John

I ran my first 9 DEs on S03's. Great tires. The longer you go with street rubber at DEs the more you will learn. You might consider some Falkens.

Don't get them yet, you're still learning basics. But do get the Toyos later, as they're one of the best choices for schools and durability.

when I was instructing for FSR Porsche club at VIR, I saw a green group student with Dunlop Racing Slicks on a stock new 911 996C4--not R's but a full-on competion slick worthy of a Grand-Am or ALMS car--I felt like telling her to go back to street tires:eek: :rolleyes: but I was not her instructor ....if I were her instructor I would have made her run on street tires and told her to leave the slicks at home from now on...at least for a long while!

Sunir

street tyres to start out with is better....speeds a little slower...u learn a lot more...

I didn't say TRASHED street tires, I said cheap ones. Try some Yokohama AVS ES100s. Even better, if you could still get them, the $64/tire Yoko AVS Intermediates I have been running. I think Sunir has a set he'd like to sell you. They're kind of scary on the track in the rain, but in the dry they're plenty good enough to learn on. Probably good for learning in the rain, too, if you're patient. Learn about being smooooth.

BTW, the student with the dunlops at the FSR event was in the intermediate group in a C2. And, the background story is that she got some totally insane deal on those slicks: Something like $500 for the wheels plus scrubbed in slicks plus some aftermarket springs and so on. Still, not the best way to learn. I think she just wanted to have some fun on her new tires, which I can understand.

Street tires offer more feedback. They give you more warning before they let go. They let go progressively rather than all at once. Over all more forgiving and more feedback.

All these things promote better learning.

I agreee, not trashed, but inexpensive street tires.

And if you are eating a set up in one DE you are overdriving your tires, and will KILL R-comps in less than a weekend.

I have 2 track weekends on a set of Sumitomo HRTZ IIs, plus about 20 hours of to/from the. I got the fronts flipped (run the other edge) even though it wasn't yet necessary.

I've heard it time and time and time again when I asked the same question as I was getting more track time, and getting faster and more skilled. Namely, R COMPS ARE THE WORK OF THE DEVIL.

To me, R comps aren't any less predictable, or any more dangerous than a good max performance tire. Sure, you can corner faster, turn faster laps, but at the limit, I found my Kumhos and Toyos to be pretty damn predictable and forgiving. In fact, I found them more forgiving than my half-worn street tires (HRT Z II's).

OTOH, since street tires offer a number of 'advantages'. With most, you can't generate the kind of grip you can with R comps, and typically won't cord a set in a weekend. When I drove on the track with streets, the wear was pretty negligable. With R comps, depending on the tire, we're talking 2-4 weekends.

They also require a second set of wheels.

They are also harder on your car and suspension, and expose problems with your suspension setup.

The also make you want harnesses to keep you planted, which then leads to questions about safety and implementation of a roll bar, then questions about a track only car. . . . .

They are the beginning of the slippery slope of the go-fast crack pipe. Kind of like the marijuana of drugs.

Originally posted by Pinecone
I have 2 track weekends on a set of Sumitomo HRTZ IIs, plus about 20 hours of to/from the. I got the fronts flipped (run the other edge) even though it wasn't yet necessary.

I had a set of these on my G20. I didn't much care for them, but surprisingly enough, they were a pretty good DE tire. I only did one event with them, but they behaved quite well. Very predictable, reasonable limit, and one of the things I hated on the street (wear) was pretty good on the track.

Originally posted by frayed
To me, R comps aren't any less predictable, or any more dangerous than a good max performance tire. Sure, you can corner faster, turn faster laps, but at the limit, I found my Kumhos and Toyos to be pretty damn predictable and forgiving. In fact, I found them more forgiving than my half-worn street tires (HRT Z II's).

I have wondered about that. The Skip Barber driving book has a little graph showing street and slick friction vs. slip angle, and while the slick has a narrower peak friction zone, it falls off more gradually as slip angle increases, once you get to about 10 degrees of slip (where the street tire falls off a cliff).

OTOH, since street tires offer a number of 'advantages'. With most, you can't generate the kind of grip you can with R comps, and typically won't cord a set in a weekend. When I drove on the track with streets, the wear was pretty negligable. With R comps, depending on the tire, we're talking 2-4 weekends.
Yeah, but how fast were you going when you were still on your street tires? I don't expect my fairly hard street tires to last longer than 4-5 weekends. And one of those weekends was in the rain, and one was when I was still really slow, and all but one when I had crap for brakes. Sounds like streets will last roughly as long as, say, Toyo RA-1s on the track.

I already have the other set of wheels, so... The 7.5" set is getting some Bridgestone S0-3s or similar, for street and rainy track, and the 8.5" set is getting some Toyo RA-1s. But not until I completely destroy the AVS intermediates, which are on a staggered set.

I took street tires to the limits at times before moving to R comps. I'm sure I can drive them much harder now, and would kill them, and likely chunk them all to hell (at least a grippier one, others won't chunk if they cannot generate enough grip).

The real point is, R comps = $$$$. Beyond tire cost (which can be friggen staggering), add in harnesses, brakes (going through PF97, R4, Blues can be friggen expensive), ducting, suspension, wheels, carting them to the track etc. etc. All a slippery slope. The longer you stay on streets (and go slower), the more cash you'll preserve.

The go-fast crack pipe is expensive. The guy in brown you will get to know on a first name basis, then become your best friend.

---------------------

On the other issue, while I don't subscribe to the Rcomp = devil philosphy, I do think there's a *right* time to move to them. After your first DE is likely not the right time. A green group guy still has lots to learn at relatively slower speeds.

The problem is that with all that extra grip, you can drive around the track making all sorts of mistakes and your car will cover for you. OTOH, once you have the skills to exploit sticky rubber, they are just as forgiving and communicative than a street tire, and perhaps even more so.

Try some Yokohama AVS ES100s. Even better, if you could still get them, the $64/tire Yoko AVS Intermediates I have been running. I think Sunir has a set he'd like to sell you. They're kind of scary on the track in the rain

What the ... :confused: I think Sunir loaned me those tires at my first time at Summit Point, this was in the rain with some standing water.... :eek:

Son of a .... :confused: :biglaughb ... I know his tricky ways now, he's worried I'll lap his azzz one day :biglaughb

Hmm...maybe Sunir will sell me his tires ... I liked those things... fairly responsive....

I was going with ES100's; but why AVS intermediates Document?

James you figured me out:devillook :D ;) :eek: !....Seriously, those AVS I tires are good for beginner students on the dry or even in the rain if you are driving smoothly on track. I'll sell 'em to you dirt cheap since my car is no longer a daily driven street car anymore.

Sunir:redspot

The avs intermediates are totally fine in the dry. The es100s are better tires, especially in the wet, but the intermediates are half the price, if you get Sunir's. I think they're too hard to chunk out if they're not brand new.

The intermediates don't really have much of a problem with hydroplaning. They just have nearly zero lateral grip in the rain, making throttle application tricky. If you're smooth enough, it will be nerve wracking but rewarding to run them in the rain.

All,

Thank you for your post. I will probably pick up some track tires next year after I have a couple of more DE's under my belt. Anyone going to Putnam next weekend?

Kane,

Glad to see you are postponing R-tires till later, after several DE.

Meanwhile, I highly recommend to you TOYO Proxes T1S (max performance street tire), practically identical performance to S03 for a lot cheaper. T1S has very strong side walls, rim protector, very long life for a max performance category, and excellent in wet as well as dry.


AlexM520

I drove on Bridgestone RE71's for a year which were on a separate set of rims. Great tire for the track though I doubt you can find them now. They just held up real well to heat and there was no chunking. AVS Intermediates are a similar tire. RA1's are pretty forgiving and I don't think it will hurt to learn on them. However, the limits are pretty high and they start to make noise WAY before break away.

I get at least 6 events out of mine at full tread, probably more. I drive around a bit on them before I go to the track which seems to give them a bit of heat cycling.

Maybe try those Azenis which seem to be right between street and R compound.

A lot of the anti-R compound stuff is from the very conservative BMWCCA crowd. It really depends on your level of skill. You may have one event but be three times the driver another novice is. I can tell you that once I borrowed a set from a friend I was not going back to street tires.

Originally posted by 91M5
A lot of the anti-R compound stuff is from the very conservative BMWCCA crowd. It really depends on your level of skill. You may have one event but be three times the driver another novice is.

Well, I'm not part of the BMWCCA crowd. Personally, I'm not the least bit anti-R compound. But neither do I feel you must have them. Basically, I think it comes down to how many events you are going to run. If you run a couple of events per year, skip the R comps unless you have money to burn.

My main point is that so many people think you have to have all the go-fast parts and tires when in fact you don't. Have fun and learn.

That said, if you are donig a lot of DEs, R-comps will last longer than street tires - especially if you shave them first. Then it's really worthwhile.

But..you must admit...they are sooooo much more fun than street tires.

Remember he said he was hooked. That means even though he thinks he will do 2 events a year it will be more like 6/year, then 10, then a rollbar, harnesses, laptimer, then Ground Control, then a racecar, then a tow vehicle and then a divorce. ;-)

Originally posted by 91M5
But..you must admit...they are sooooo much more fun than street tires.


Actually, I cannot comment because I've never done a DE on R comps. I've always done them on street tires since I only do one a year. I race on R comps of course. :)

Originally posted by 91M5
Remember he said he was hooked. That means even though he thinks he will do 2 events a year it will be more like 6/year, then 10, then a rollbar, harnesses, laptimer, then Ground Control, then a racecar, then a tow vehicle and then a divorce. ;-)

Hehe. Speed is addictive.

Pssstt.....

Wanna score a turbo? :naughty:

I had a great weekend at Putnam. Next school that I am going to I will have the R-compound tires. I am pretty much at the limits of my street tires which makes me happy because now I know that I am ready for the next step of the insanity!:biglaughb

Originally posted by Geo31

That said, if you are donig a lot of DEs, R-comps will last longer than street tires - especially if you shave them first. Then it's really worthwhile.

How much longer do shaved R's last vs non shaved? After I wear out my AVS intermediates I'm probably going to get a set of Rs but I want ones that last a long time. I don't know if I can get through a year with them but I'd like to at least try.... I'm probably gonna do 5-6 DEs next year plus all the autocrosses I can get too (which if the DEs happen on the same weekends as autocrosses that won't be many, like this year....:rolleyes: ).