I am now thinking about getting myself a dedicated track car as a result of becoming increasingly concerned about wrecking my daily driver (2001 325xi) at the track. An older car like a 325is would be cheap, I could add in a full roll cage and harnesses, and if I wreck it, it?s not as big a deal. Would not have to worry about insurance, etc. And maybe I will want to get into racing. So I could have a car for stock class racing. I could keep it street legal so I could drive it to the track and pretty much stock so I could try the low cost stock racing.

The E30 and E36 325 cars are what I am thinking about. Maybe a 325i/is of some sort. A late E30 325is can be found a little bit cheaper than an early E36 325is. But the price difference is not huge. An E36 is more appealing in that it is a more current model. Parts availability should be good for quite some time. Maybe a better, newer car. And I have a nice set of wheels and tires I could use on an E36, but probably not an E30 (17? BBS RK with 235/40/17 SO3). For me, price is definitely a concern. So some questions:

-E30 or E36?

-Any reason to go for a 325i versus a 325is? It seems that the early E36 325i (4 doors) is getting almost as cheap as the late E30, but the 325is (2 doors) is not quite as cheap. So any pros or cons going with a 4 door versus a 2 door?

-Where can one find listings of track cars for sale, ones that are already dedicated track cars (gutted interiors, role cage, etc.)? I suspect those might actually be cheaper in some cases. I have not seen much for ads in my quick looking around.

I'd go with E36 325is. If you're planning on doing a roll cage, you want a 2 door as its much more expensive to find/install a 4-door roll cage. In addition, beefing up an E36 325is for track duty can be done pretty easy with m3 parts.


Of course... that E30 325is did pass me today at Buttonwillow, so those can be very fun little track cars :)

Another point, there is now an E30 Spec racing class. So an E30 with pretty much normal track mods (they do spec the suspension parts) and you also have a race car.

The E36 makes a much better track car platform in my opinion. Ask James Clay at Bimmerworld. A similarly prepped E36 will be faster, b/c the rear suspension in the E36 is worlds better than the E30.

I'd get a 4 door, simply b/c they are cheaper. As for cages, a custom cage from the right fabricator is not any more expensive for a sedan vs. coupe, and will be stronger and lend more chassis stiffness to the car than a mail order bolt in kit. Again, bimmerworld is king here, and can do a cage for a reasonable price.

To be honest, I'd look around for a used Stock class car from BMW CCA (K stock, I think), or an SCCA ITS car. Should be cheaper than building your own, and most of the car should be sorted out.

I agree with frayed. Get the E36. If you're thinking of racing, the E36 325i/is is the hot ticket currently in SCCA ITS and Bimmerworld has the hot hand. They've done the most development work on these cars for IT and it shows.

Isn't budget a concern here? I know somebody who went from E36 M3, to E30 M3 and now run a 2002 :D He said the E36 was probably the most fun and the easiest to drive fast, the E30 required a lot more work and better driver.

I'm thinking about getting a 2002 and get it on! That is when I have one more spot in my garage :(

Interesting what you guys say. I posted the same question over at bimmerfest and the consensus seemd to be go for an E30 because they are easier cars to work on and have fewer problems than the E36. Hmmm. I'll have to give it some thought.

Any suggestions of places to look for street or already prepared track cars for sale?

Oh, and yes, budget is a concern for me.

Thanks!

Is the E36 rear really that superior/faster to the E30?:dunno
I didn't think there was really much difference.

Does the 318ti hatchback have the same suspension design as all the other E36s? does it make (with a motor swap) a good racer too?

are E36s slow-in fast-out like the E30?

the 318ti has an e30 rear end. Just like the Z3, Mz3, and M Coupe.

Zenon,

E36's are fast everywhere. :)

Amazing how much grip the E36 chassis can generate, and the lack of bumpsteer, at least out back. The rear end on the E30 is comparatively harder to dial in.

JimW,

Well, it depends on the criteria you are weighing. Personally, I think the problems with the E36 chassis are overblown, and most easily addressed. I recall a blurb in the Roundel in the tech section from an esteemed guru. In fact, I think it was Brett at Koala.

Anyway, he lamented the E36 as against its predecessor, noting: water pumps, radiator necks, rear shock mounts, rear trailing arm bushings, oil pump nuts, rear subframe, rear sway mounts, overreving, and I think a few other things.

Most of those issues are fairly straightforward to address. But, one thing for certain, as you watch club racing in the various classes in which the E30's are lumped with E36's, even with similar power output, the E36 cars are faster. And, typically, the E30's run at lower weights.

Couple the additional track performance, with the bulletproof motor, level of aftermarket support, and the E36 is a great platform.

If you read up in the SCCA ITS forums, you'll find the same thing.

I've heard of someone who's swapped a ton of E36 hardware on his E30, would that bring me "up" to an E36 suspension?
I'll try to dig up the thread.


What has changed from E30 to 36? geopmetry/design etc.:dunno

here's the link:
http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=9037&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

it seems he now has the E36 geometry:
"pics of the modified lower control arm bushings i'm installing to keep the wheel geometry correct with the E36 M3 suspension."

Ha!

I got that beat. My local tech just finished stripping a round tail light '02 down to its bare shell. He's judiciously removing the entire suspension, and replacing it with an E36 setup, front *and* rear.

Then, he's putting in a 3.2L, built to the nines.

Thing should be a Bmod warrior.

the e36suspension fits in for the most part up front with the rear being a mcoupe set up all the way down to the rear subframe. i dont see much of a difference once there swaped except for the 5 lug set up since you can run bigger brakes allready. alot of my car as it is, is e36 ie: engine, tranny ect.. i have a e36 s50b30u in it with a 95 m tranny as well. honestly minus the not being able to fit large tires in the rear imo the 3.0 swap e30 is one of the most fun cars and is very capable when set up right

jeff, he just replaced an E46 suspension with an E36 suspension?:lol: lol
the E36s suspension is even better than and E46? WTF :laugh

vodo, I think that's what I'll realistically end up doing (@ first anyway:devillook) the E36 5 lug and a big ole motor swap:D If only because even an E30 is draining the wallet:(
:evil2

the 5 lug swap is not so nessicary though unless your out of wheels that you like that will fit, ireland movit and a few other companys make monster brakes for the little e30 so u can stop faster if you want to so the 5 lug is mostly for a better wheel selection

Originally posted by zenon
jeff, he just replaced an E46 suspension with an E36 suspension?:lol: lol
the E36s suspension is even better than and E46? WTF :laugh


:confused:
If you're talking about frayed's post, I believe that he's talking about a BMW 2002, not a 2002 BMW 3 series. So yes, replacing a late '60s/early '70s suspension with an early '90s suspension will be an improvement. :)

I didn't know what the hell Zenon was talking about? Now you've cleared that up.

Yeah, a round taillight '02. In the '02 world, they are roughly divided into two camps, the round tailighters and the square. The rounds were the earlier ones, I think the switch was in 74ish timeframe? Not sure.

I should run down and take pics. It's a bare shell right now, resurrected from the scrap heap.

:lol:

yea I thought you meant a 2002 3 series:laugh

I have heard the E46 is too numb. But to replace the entire suspension with E36 underpinnings I had no idea!

THAT sounds crazycool...


You should go get some pics, that sounds mad.:)

I have a bmw 2002 right now and wanted to know what suspension to get. Will the bmw E36 bolt on. Or what other applications are possible.

Uhh, this thread is 2 years old.

The modern suspensions will not just bolt on. It would takes TONS of fabrication and custom work. Ireland Engineering is a good place to start for 2002's.

http://www.bmw2002.com/

And you'll have to supply a little more info. What is the condition of the car? What are you using it for? Street, track, race?

Holy thread-back-from-the-dead, Batman!

FWIW... I bought a '93 325is about a year ago. It's been to the track a few times last year and twice this season. Going again next weekend. It's a really great car for the track. I'm very happy with it. :redspot

Holy thread-back-from-the-dead, Batman!

FWIW... I bought a '93 325is about a year ago. It's been to the track a few times last year and twice this season. Going again next weekend. It's a really great car for the track. I'm very happy with it. :redspot

how reliable and powerful is it? is it stripped?

my 944S is a POS despite a fully rebuilt engine and clutch with uprated suspension. i'm tired of all the little things wrong with it, but don't want to use the M3 as a primary track car as it's still too nice.

I dunno how old this thread is, but there's some misinformation going around. The E30 rear suspension is NOT similar to the E36 M3/325/328 rear suspension. It's completely damn diffrent. The standard E36 rear is a multilink setup which allows for better camber and toe control than the E30 rear. The E30 rear IS the same as the E36 318ti, as well as the E36/7 M coupe. That rear is pretty lame, geometry-wise. The E36 will outhandle an E30 by nature of it's rear geometry.

I dunno how old this thread is, but there's some misinformation going around. The E30 rear suspension is NOT similar to the E36 M3/325/328 rear suspension. It's completely damn diffrent. The standard E36 rear is a multilink setup which allows for better camber and toe control than the E30 rear. The E30 rear IS the same as the E36 318ti, as well as the E36/7 M coupe. That rear is pretty lame, geometry-wise. The E36 will outhandle an E30 by nature of it's rear geometry.
Almost 3 years old. :p

I dunno how old this thread is, but there's some misinformation going around. The E30 rear suspension is NOT similar to the E36 M3/325/328 rear suspension. It's completely damn diffrent. The standard E36 rear is a multilink setup which allows for better camber and toe control than the E30 rear. The E30 rear IS the same as the E36 318ti, as well as the E36/7 M coupe. That rear is pretty lame, geometry-wise. The E36 will outhandle an E30 by nature of it's rear geometry.

You just brought back an old thread to reiterate what had already been said. Read it again, there is no misinformation. It was said that the E36 suspension was different and superior to an E30's and that the 318ti and Z3 chassis has the same suspension as an E30.

I dunno how old this thread is, but there's some misinformation going around. The E30 rear suspension is NOT similar to the E36 M3/325/328 rear suspension. It's completely damn diffrent. The standard E36 rear is a multilink setup which allows for better camber and toe control than the E30 rear. The E30 rear IS the same as the E36 318ti, as well as the E36/7 M coupe. That rear is pretty lame, geometry-wise. The E36 will outhandle an E30 by nature of it's rear geometry.
Yeah, but a M Coupe sure does look sweet!!! :buttrock

Unless we're talking highly developed race cars (and most of the discussion is around that) it's close enough to be down to driver skill. For the average joe weekend racer or DE car, I'm not sure it matters that much.

The e36 platform does have the advantage of more developed aftermarket parts for the rear end though. 95% of the other parts are shared between the e36/8 platform and the e36 platform. Some body stuff on the Z3 are expensive (Carbon hoods - $$$$), some are unavailable (no composite doors, or other body parts for instance).

The Z3's passenger compartment is a little smaller and doesn't provide quite the same space around the driver for comfort or crash protection though.