If any of you have done the install yourselves, did you happen to note the part number on those injectors? Dinan is guarding this info like its dissemination is grounds for dismissal or something. When asked about what the flow rate is at 51 psi like our fuel systems, all they tell me is, hmmmm, its somewhere between 27 and 31 lbs. So, if anybody has written down the part numbers during installation, if youd post it here, Id appreciate it...

Replaced mine with 35s, so I can check when I get home. Per CARB, they're supposed to be Lucas 28.8s.

I can understand Dinan's reluctance at giving out the specs, considering how rampant people copy other's designs has become. Also, it's sometimes difficult to get specs on injectors, believe it or not. Thus, when you have to pull some favors to get them, you don't readily give out the info. For the record, I do know the flow specs of those injectors. They are 28.8lb/hr, but NOT at the BMW specced/used fuel pressure. They're rated at another pressure (and don't ask me what :D ).

AA told me the same thing NickG stated. They told me they flow closer to 35 lb/hr at BMW fuel pressure.

BTW, this was for RMS's 28.8 injectors, which I am assuming are the same as Dinan's (what I've heard).

>>Replaced mine with 35s, so I can check when I get home. Per CARB, they're supposed to be Lucas 28.8s.<<

If you can find the part numbers Id appreciate it.

>>They are 28.8lb/hr, but NOT at the BMW specced/used fuel pressure. They're rated at another pressure <<

Nick arent most injectors rated at about 43 psi or about 3 bar? NOw are systems are at 3.5 bar or about 51 psi, so it stands to reason that plugs rated at 43 psi will put out more flow at 51 psi. Kind of like having our own hi rate fpr! Well...not exactly. But it does serve us guys well who are looking for a little bit more! For instance, 28.8 lb injectors times 2.04 = 59 hp/injector times 6 injectors = 354 hp, which is what dinan rates the kit at. But, with increased boost showing 340 rwhp, or over 400 crank hp, it becomes reasonable if they are flowing anything closer to say 35lb as Spencer said, because 35 pounders will support over 430 hp. Since these forumlas are used for figuring sizing, I assume that they are talking about producing an 80% duty cycle to support these. But I dont know for sure. Here's the link:

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0102&P=2

Originally posted by paul e
[BNick arent most injectors rated at about 43 psi or about 3 bar? NOw are systems are at 3.5 bar or about 51 psi, so it stands to reason that plugs rated at 43 psi will put out more flow at 51 psi. [/B]

I wouldn't say 'most' injectors are rated at 43psi, but rather, *some* injectors are rated at 43psi (~3bar). Other common ratings are 2.5bar, 2.7bar, 3.0bar, 3.5bar, and 5.0bar.

Sorry Paul, the injectors don't seem to have any identifying information marked on them. Just a green color coded ring, which means nothing to me.

Thanks number9 for looking. Looks like Dinan really wants to keep them stealth, by rubbing off the Lucas part numbers!! :--)

BTW, I see on your beautiful S3 white m3, you have the famous air filter cutout in the front bumper cover. Dinan actually sent me the template for that cutout in case I ever wanted to do it. Clearly, at one point, Dinan thought it was necessary to provide enough airflow to the system. Since I dont have it, I drive around without my foglight instead, with a fabricated cover with mesh center to make it look finished.

>>I wouldn't say 'most' injectors are rated at 43psi, but rather, *some* injectors are rated at 43psi (~3bar). Other common ratings are 2.5bar, 2.7bar, 3.0bar, 3.5bar, and 5.0bar.<<

In which case it would seem that just quoting an injector's flow rate is pretty meaningless, since we all know that they flow different rates at different pressures.

BTW, the 35s I installed were tested at a test pressure of 43 psi. Nick, if that turns out to be the same as the Dinan injectors - well I suppose I'll have a set of spares... :confused: Paul, my car probably will look exactly like your's for a little while. I got a set of FM10s to use as track wheels (and temporarily as street wheels while the Dinan FM5s are being refurbed). BTW, your car looks great!

>>BTW, your car looks great!<<

Hey Thanks, numero nueve. Those fikses are awsome .. So light weight and shiny. The edges are so clean you can almost cut yourself on the bevels if your not careful. Did you take a visit to the site in my sig line? I just uploaded them a couple days ago. I wanted some new ones after I clear cornered the car, and some other small touches.

Originally posted by paul e
BTW, I see on your beautiful S3 white m3, you have the famous air filter cutout in the front bumper cover. Dinan actually sent me the template for that cutout in case I ever wanted to do it. Clearly, at one point, Dinan thought it was necessary to provide enough airflow to the system. Since I dont have it, I drive around without my foglight instead, with a fabricated cover with mesh center to make it look finished.



My understanding is that the cutout is for an air cooling tube that cools the older Powerdyne supercharger; not for intake air flow improvements.

When I bought Steve's car, it had been upgraded to a Vortech SC and the air filter was pretty much right behind the cutout. Whatever its original intent, its subsequent intent was for airflow to the intake.

Pete, I didnt know that. But we all know that the position of the K&N behind the bumper is not great, with only the seam allowances and gaps passing the air through. Im somewhat skeptical as to how effective a hole in the top of the brake duct is. AFter all, its also possible that rushing air through a vessel will tend to create a vaccum and suction air on the other side of the hole, ie, where the filter is, away from the filter and toward the rushing air in the duct. To counter that, Ive run a piece of flex hose through that hole from the mouth of the brake duct. But none of these gyrations are necessary if you have that cutout. But it make sense what you say since the powerdynes were what were being used at the time, and we know they were starved for cooling, and suffered ill health often as a result.

Pete, every time I look at your dyno pull and afr, Im amazed that it looks identical to mine. Literally! Since your also at 10:1 from about 4700 to 5700 rpms, like mine, I imagine youre suffering from as dismal gas mileage as I am? When Im particularly hard on a tank of gas, ie, with a lot of local driving, and alot of hard spurts to redline for the entire tank, I find I'll only get about 220 miles out of 14 gallons, or about 15-16 mpg. If I have all parkway, with little wot acceleration runs, which hardly ever happnens by the way, I can get as good a 22 mpg for the tank. I guess thats not all that bad, but with our rich ratios, you have to believe we're getting lousy mileage. Not that Id like to get rid of the power or anything :--)

I haven't measured around town mileage but I do get about 240 miles on a tank full. I have gotten upto 24mpg on the freeway and as little as 8 on the track.

I pretty much ignore MPG :D

>> 8 on the track. I pretty much ignore MPG<<

Yea, with our mpg, its a good thing. I just wish our tanks were bigger. Stopping for gas isnt one of my favorite activities!

pstoppani- How much boost are you running?

Paul E- FYi your dyno sheet is in STD Correction and Pstoppani's is in SAE. For what is worth when I change the correction factor from STD to SAE my hp does down 18hp. Does anyone know what the difference in the correction factors?

I have talked to an ex-Dinan Engineer and he looked at some of his old notes and told me that the injectors they used in a 97 SC M3 are 28lbs.

Hi Vic, we traded emails a few weeks back. Would it be useful to upgrade to the the TEC3 if tuning were limited to CA 91 octane pump gas? I'm currently running 351 RWHP SAE at about 9-psi boost.

Number9 - Yes even on 91 the Tec3 will get you more power. I was using 91 untill I installed the SC. I tuned BJ's car on 91 and with the same boost it gained 42 hp SAE at 6500 RPM. Peak torque was at 5900rpm and gained 33 ft/lbs, but at 3000prm it gained 49 more ft/lbs.

Are you running Dyno spot cams?

Originally posted by siastuning
Are you running Dyno spot cams?
Yep. Just installed SS headers as well, though I doubt they'll change much of anything with the cats still in place.

Vic --

have you had a chance to reply to my email that I sent a week ago?

Thanks

>> Paul E- FYi your dyno sheet is in STD Correction and Pstoppani's is in SAE. For what is worth when I change the correction factor from STD to SAE my hp does down 18hp. Does anyone know what the difference in the correction factors<<

Thanks Vic. Ok, my SAE value at peak is 331 rwhp. Thats with smoothing off...I pick up an extra 3 hp because of a little 'jag' in the curve, that smoothing rounds off! I'll use all I can get!! Damn, Vic, if only you were out here, Id ask to be a client in a second!! I can tell my my timing numbers from the scantool, compared with Boris' from the AA SC that my Dinan sofware is way more conservative. For instance, if cruising, and then nailing it, Boris timing will go from about 30 degrees btdc to about 15, and then advance to the low 20s. Mine will go from about 30 to about 8, and then advance to the mid to upper teens. So, Im loosing significant power just from this conservative timing curve. Let alone the afr, which is ridiculously rich at 10:1 from 4700 to 5700 rpms! Thanks mssr Dinan.....Maybe its one of the reasons his cars last so long, and for that IM thankful. But Id rather not have quite so much 'safety margin'...

Yeah Paul, I'd be happy with the fact that your motor is still together, even tho you're running more boost than the kit came with...

Imagine if Dinan was more aggressive in their programming and you added the 3 psi on top of it...

NoSoup4U- I am a retard. I just spent 20min trying to find your email. Sorry, but can you resend it. :(

Paule- You are right you are losing power from the timing AND the fuel. The fuel is to lean down low and then to rich up high.

Number9- When Rosen installed a SuperSprint Header and no cat exhaust he gained 6hp at 7k and lost 8hp at 3400.

>>Imagine if Dinan was more aggressive in their programming and you added the 3 psi on top of it...<<

Doc, guess what. If dinan had given me better tuning, Id be more than happy to forego the 3 extra psi, and look at a manifold swap, instead, which is their stage V. Im reluctant to do it now, on top of the boost bump. But with a little more aggressive tuning, Id be making the same, or better numbers with less boost. ID much prefer that!

Originally posted by paul e
>>Imagine if Dinan was more aggressive in their programming and you added the 3 psi on top of it...<<

Doc, guess what. If dinan had given me better tuning, Id be more than happy to forego the 3 extra psi, and look at a manifold swap, instead, which is their stage V. Im reluctant to do it now, on top of the boost bump. But with a little more aggressive tuning, Id be making the same, or better numbers with less boost. ID much prefer that!

Who are you kidding Paul? There is not one person who reads or participates in this forum that is happy with the 'as designed' power of the kits we buy/install. Each and every one of us eventually wants more. Time for you to wake up :stickoutt

>>Time for you to wake up <<

Woa...Easy big feller! When YOU gonna wake up and realize you have a God given gift for tuning, and start spreadin' the wealth! Since its true, as you say, that after awhile, none of us are 100% thrilled with our state of tune, seems to me you could have a bonanza, if you found a way to clone your abilities.

Paul,

Don't get so hung up on numbers. I'd be much more concerned with how the car is running.

Would you rather have a flawlessly executed and well running kit that isn't quite making top power, or a kit with software pushing the edge that could cause your motor to go boom? Cough, cough rms, cough cough.

With the amount of cash I'd lay out for a sc kit, I want one that works perfectly and I don't have to worry about blowing my rather expensive M motor...

>>Would you rather have a flawlessly executed and well running kit that isn't quite making top power, or a kit with software pushing the edge that could cause your motor to go boom<<

Doc, thanks for talking some sense .... I must say, despite my bellyaching, Im thrilled to death that I can run 11 psi, knock free, and no CELs, with good safety parms. I will say that when I was at 8 psi, which was my out of the box reading, on days above 80 degrees, it would start to heat soak really badly, and at times, barely felt boosted at all! So I said, lets see what the inch larger pulley and water/alky injection will do...I just wanted to try it. So when it was done, I found that it felt like quite a big change. Before I got used to it, it really knocked my socks off ....But I was worried, so I went right to the dyno. When I saw my power production, which was at least 30 more peak HP than any Dinan SC kit Id seen dynojet readings on, and my AFR which was pig rich at its richest, and no leaner than about 12.5:1 at 6500 rpms, I was beyond happy. These values, combined with the extra safety margin of water injection, convinced me that I could keep the pulley, and remain relatively safe. That was a year and a half ago, and things are still excellent. So, why the complaining?

Ive been comparing numbers with boris and his new AA system. Where my timing gets pulled to between 8 and 15 degrees advance under wot, his only gets pulled between 15 and 22 degrees! And get aload of IAT values: Mine get reduced from about 195 to about 140 degrees; but his go all the way down to 80 to 100 on 80 degree days. His increased timing, and much colder intake temps means that he probably has similar power to me, 2.5 less psi.

But, you really cant compare two different systems....He can afford more timing advance because his intercooler saves his bacon, more than my water injection does. Id love to have nice cold IATs like he does. Too bad there's next to no room for a traditional FMIC on this application. But maybe I need to reconsider the AA aftercooler. Id love to see someone instrument the cooling produced by that system. But if its anywhere close to what AA achieves with their fmic, maybe thats not a bad thing to do.

Or, as you say, 330 rwhp SAE is very close to 400 crank hp, and no matter what, thats a powerful car. While its not the Most powerful, its still plenty fast, runs without any CELs ever, blows now head gaskets, and maybe, I just need to say Im lucky being able to run 11 psi relatively safely, and not try and push the envelope any more than I already have. Discretion is the better part of valor, so they say. Also, this is a street car, not a race car. Ive always been bad at 'leave well enough alone', but maybe this is the ideal time to apply that well worn saying.