After debating an ls1 swap or going turbo i decided i am going turbo. i was going to go with the stage 2 ces kit but after more thought i decided i wanted to go bigger. i know after i put the kit on i will want more power so i figure just do it right the first time. my goal is somewhere above 700hp to the wheels. can this be done with the s52? i really want to do it but i need something i can actually drive without breaking down. i really dont know where to start for this so any advice would be great.

you will have to spend money like it's nobody's business. why you need so much powah? what are you at now?

If it's your only car, don't do it. Buy a daily before starting any project with those kinds of goals.

Any more specifics on the requirements? Does it need to do this on pump gas? or only race gas? Does it need to do this daily? How long does it need to survive? Does it need to make 700 for 10 seconds at a time? or for hours at a time?
What sort of drivability are you looking for?

+100 on the secondary car as DD. I haven't even bolted the turbo onto my built motor and am realizing that :(

I'm a little over 400hp, and I drive a 1992 Nissan Altima with no hubcaps to work everyday.....:lol

right now... around 190 to the wheels. a few of my friends drive very high hp cars and i just want something to keep up. i have driven my friends cobra which is sitting at around 650 to the wheels a lot which is very fun. i am actually coming from a z06 that was putting down around 470rwhp and i just wanted more. i bought an m3 shell to do an ls1 swap about 6 months ago then recently sold it for my current e36 m3. i know the ces kit will get me at around 550 to the wheels with the water/meth injection but i know i will still be wanting more so i think i will just do everything at once. my budget is around 25-30k for everything including labor. is that insane or could it be done?

it wont be driven on a daily basis but it will see at least 10k miles a year maybe more. i would want pump gas tune also.

25-30k is plenty for 700 whp+ IMO

Glad you are going big to start with! Smart man.

Please sell the s52. At that power you will be blowing headgaskets left and right unless you do pyramid rings.

Do this:
-purchase m52 for cheap.
-135mm forged rods.
-s52 crank.
-8.5:1CR Wiseco or CP pistons at 85mm bore.
-s52 cams.
-O-ring block.
-MLS .070 HG.
-TRM ARP 2000 nonundercut 10mm studs.
You will have 3.05 liters displacement and your engine will be able to handle probably 1000whp.

If it's your only car, don't do it. Buy a daily before starting any project with those kinds of goals.
+100000000
Any more specifics on the requirements? Does it need to do this on pump gas? or only race gas? Does it need to do this daily? How long does it need to survive? Does it need to make 700 for 10 seconds at a time? or for hours at a time?
What sort of drivability are you looking for?
Have this guy tune it. Make sure you stay bottom mount. Top mount is a pain in the ass and then you can easily locate an 803 MAF for this guy's tune! :buttrock

my budget is around 25-30k for everything including labor. is that insane or could it be done?

That IS insane. :redspot

GO BIG my insane man.

Since you have $$ I'd contact someone reputable who has already made big power cars and let them handle it. ICS would be my first choice. Good luck and keep us updated if it all works out.

That IS insane. :redspot

GO BIG my insane man.

+1

Am I allowed to +1 on my own post?

:dunno

Either find a good engine building, and follow Cams advice, or ship the car out. As well, you'll need a good manifold - 666 T4 bottom mount? - and a good tune, such as one from TRM/techno550.

From my experience you can save a lot of money if you are in charge of the engine build and you pick up most of the parts yourself.

You can scrap a ton of the extra stuff that is not necessary while cutting off part of the retail profit margin. With building mostly the bottom end and not really doing anything to the top end other than s52 cams and a full check over to make sure springs and everything are good to go (aftermarket Ferrea dual springs are good if you want to spend the money), you can spend $5-$6k building the engine rather than $10-$15k. Shops love to talk you into things you don't really need and they also will talk you into using products that they are familiar with and/or they get a large discount on. I don't blame them, that is business. However, now that you know this, I would take charge and piece together as much as you can. Then show up to the shop with the built motor and all the pieces to the puzzle for them to install.

I had my friend do this and he saved a ton of money. Plus he has exactly what he wants and his car is driving very well. He went with the 803 MAF and TRM tuning like I advised him. He tells me thank you all the time. :)

I told you the engine parts, the other parts to get are:
-666 bottom mount T4 exhaust manifold.
-666 charge piping (I told my friend to get this and even my shop fabricator mentioned how high the quality was which he doesn't do often)
-ebay intercooler with end tanks to proper size that 666 advises in order to fit the charge piping properly.
-803 MAF
-GT4088R .85 A/R turbo pt71gts dbb .81 A/R turbo
-Tial 50mm BOV or dual HKS SSQ BOVs
-Samco connecting hoses
-t-bolt clamps
-steel braided AN oil feed and drain lines
-Mike Radowski oil scavenge pump kit
-custom downpipe
-custom intake pipe with air filter

After debating an ls1 swap or going turbo i decided i am going turbo. i was going to go with the stage 2 ces kit but after more thought i decided i wanted to go bigger. i know after i put the kit on i will want more power so i figure just do it right the first time. my goal is somewhere above 700hp to the wheels. can this be done with the s52? i really want to do it but i need something i can actually drive without breaking down. i really dont know where to start for this so any advice would be great.
You can make 700whp on the S52, but it's gonna take a lot of money and work. Pretty much replacing everything in the engine. New internals, heads, a HUGE turbo, engine management, and you will be pushing the limits of the block if you go past 900whp.


You should LT1 swap, 700whp on stock internals is pretty standard. You could do it with just an NX kit and cams.


Twin turbo LT1 is good for 800whp with stock internals and a couple 35Rs, and that's the low end of what is possible. Forged internals would get you 1500whp+ with twin PT88s

you will have to spend money like it's nobody's business. why you need so much powah? what are you at now?

:lol Somebody's jelous!

He's sad he couldn't make that power without a billion dollars in mods and some actual nuts, two things he can't find.

LT1s are trendy nowadays,
but they're lightweight...

Honestly, if you need to ask whats needed for "700+ rwhp" you can't do it. Sure you could drop the car off with a check signed, but that still doesn't mean you'll get what you're paying for.

Research and come back once you've got a decent idea.

No need to research. Just follow what I told you and you are in business. Probably for $20k all installed and running. Maybe less.

I love to help when I can.

Not that I doubt the tuner you mentioned Cameron, but I don't know of any 700+ rwhp builds they've displayed

i actually dont want to just drop the car off. i am still paying my way through school and i really want to have a big part in the build. this build will be a little way off, i hope to have it started by at least spring semester next year but it may be a little longer because things never work out the way i want them to. i just wanted to know exactly what i was plunging into first. i know it is very easy to look over little things, and the first time that happens, stuff breaks. i really dont want to make the same mistakes as my buddies, who have to throw money into their cars every time they turn around.

Not that I doubt the tuner you mentioned Cameron, but I don't know of any 700+ rwhp builds they've displayed

Get out of my head.
I was just thinking the same thing moments ago.
I'm sure he can do it.
He tuned Jordan's 500+ car.

He seems to tend to steer people
(w/ some of his questions)
toward more friendly/useable/immediate power.

Not that I doubt the tuner you mentioned Cameron, but I don't know of any 700+ rwhp builds they've displayed
This is true. If it ends up that he can't do it, then there will be other suggestions at that time. Hopefully by the time this guy is ready for tuning TRM will have successfully made 700whp on a car. (hint: Mike...get work done you need a 700whp dyno now!)
I know it is very easy to look over little things, and the first time that happens, stuff breaks. I really dont want to make the same mistakes as my buddies, who have to throw money into their cars every time they turn around.
This is why I told you not to go with the s52 or you would be sorry. There isn't enough meat between cylinders and water jackets to hold the headgasket together.

You will also want to heavily upgrade the fuel system obviously. That is something which is such a personal thing I did not go into it. Some like Aeromotive, others like Weldon and such....some like intank Walbro pumps and some like noisy external pumps, etc.

Get out of my head.
I was just thinking the same thing moments ago.
I'm sure he can do it.
He tuned Jordan's 500+ car.

He seems to tend to steer people
(w/ some of his questions)
toward more friendly/useable/immediate power.

I am sure its possible as hardware is scalable, but I just don't know of any setups like that that I've seen. 500+ is a good power, but thats on a supposedly stock m52. 700+ reliable is a different ball game - we'll see I guess!

NC stepping up!

Where in nc/what school? I go to ncsu and here's a link to my build. Haven't had much time for it lately but kind of along your goals.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=985069

From my experience you can save a lot of money if you are in charge of the engine build and you pick up most of the parts yourself.

You can scrap a ton of the extra stuff that is not necessary while cutting off part of the retail profit margin. With building mostly the bottom end and not really doing anything to the top end other than s52 cams and a full check over to make sure springs and everything are good to go (aftermarket Ferrea dual springs are good if you want to spend the money), you can spend $5-$6k building the engine rather than $10-$15k. Shops love to talk you into things you don't really need and they also will talk you into using products that they are familiar with and/or they get a large discount on. I don't blame them, that is business. However, now that you know this, I would take charge and piece together as much as you can. Then show up to the shop with the built motor and all the pieces to the puzzle for them to install.

I had my friend do this and he saved a ton of money. Plus he has exactly what he wants and his car is driving very well. He went with the 803 MAF and TRM tuning like I advised him. He tells me thank you all the time. :)

I told you the engine parts, the other parts to get are:
-666 bottom mount T4 exhaust manifold.
-666 charge piping (I told my friend to get this and even my shop fabricator mentioned how high the quality was which he doesn't do often)
-ebay intercooler with end tanks to proper size that 666 advises in order to fit the charge piping properly.
-803 MAF
-GT4088R .85 A/R turbo pt71gts dbb .81 A/R turbo
-Tial 50mm BOV or dual HKS SSQ BOVs
-Samco connecting hoses
-t-bolt clamps
-steel braided AN oil feed and drain lines
-Mike Radowski oil scavenge pump kit
-custom downpipe
-custom intake pipe with air filter


Nice parts list, but why skimp on the intercooler? Get something quality like the rest of the parts so you do not have to worry about it down the road. Literally

Nothing wrong with an ebay intercooler

last 2 semesters i have been at App but next semester ECU. i actually live near monroe while im not in school.

the only way i am able to do this is because i got hit by a drunk driver when i was 4 so when i turned 16 i got a pretty good settlement, although i have blown most of it haha.

that looks like a pretty nice build up dmb882 id like to see it when its finished

i actually dont want to just drop the car off. i am still paying my way through school and i really want to have a big part in the build. this build will be a little way off, i hope to have it started by at least spring semester next year but it may be a little longer because things never work out the way i want them to. i just wanted to know exactly what i was plunging into first. i know it is very easy to look over little things, and the first time that happens, stuff breaks. i really dont want to make the same mistakes as my buddies, who have to throw money into their cars every time they turn around.

Haha, you're paying your way through school and want to spend 25k on a turbo kit? edit: I see your post about having a settlement...

If I were you, I'd buy an E46m3 and call HPF and get a stage 3 kit...

When I was 17 or so, my Boss (at the time) said this to me when I had idiotic dreams about modifying cars: "You can spend every penny you have while you're in school, but it will pale in comparison to what you can afford once you graduate."

i was thinking of doing an e46 with a nice setup but theres just something about the e36's that i am in love with.

I am sure its possible as hardware is scalable, but I just don't know of any setups like that that I've seen. 500+ is a good power, but thats on a supposedly stock m52. 700+ reliable is a different ball game - we'll see I guess!
IIRC Bret (Bbaz on here) is around 600ish last time I remembered talking to him (aboout 2.5 years ago when he helped me pull my cylinder head). The car had been running on TRM tuning for a while and Bret still works with Mike and Thomas and still has the same car as far as I know. Hopefully someone can verify these numbers for me.

..
If I were you, I'd buy an E46m3 and call HPF and get a stage 3 kit...
..

Totally

My questions had a purpose.

I don't know why we need dynos with a specific number to say its possible.
I've tuned 500+ rwhp "stock" M52's (just a MLS) on 93 octane and nothing else. I've tuned "stock" M50TU's with an MLS and studs to ~450 rwhp, also on just 93 octane. When you start wanting 700+, the easy way is to have a race gas tune to make 700+ and a pump gas tune to make more like 500-600. Not that 700+ wouldn't be possible on pump gas, but thats really pushing it.

techno, that would actualy be perfect for my needs

techno, that would actualy be perfect for my needs

What standalone would best serve yours and ours?
Or would you need one?

Would the DME handle 600+, 700+

My questions had a purpose.

I don't know why we need dynos with a specific number to say its possible.
I've tuned 500+ rwhp "stock" M52's (just a MLS) on 93 octane and nothing else. I've tuned "stock" M50TU's with an MLS and studs to ~450 rwhp, also on just 93 octane. When you start wanting 700+, the easy way is to have a race gas tune to make 700+ and a pump gas tune to make more like 500-600. Not that 700+ wouldn't be possible on pump gas, but thats really pushing it.

Please don't get defensive about it - there is a need to see dynos because if someone specifically wants that number we can't recommend anyone to tune without knowing they have and with reliability. If Bbaz was running 600 hp thats great to know, but thats a bit away from the OPs 700. No one is saying you couldn't do it, but you haven't done it - or, if you have, we don't know it.

Meh, I say toss in a Ls-7, Blow it and Be done with it.

Then you have TONS of loot left over on how to figure out keeping the car stuck to the ground. (Im thinking widebody....) I mean, if you think a GOOD/amazing set of 255/40/17 tires even stands a chance...... just ain't gonna happen.

I remember being @ ~450whp in an E36 M3... Stock 5-spd and 3.15... thing still spun 'em in third sometime... I was not even driving at the track, just a fun 'get down the highway to work quick car'.

THEN I got into an 04 Z06 (much like your self... and realized why 315+ rubber kicks ass).

Sold the 'vette and am saving for a 997 GT-2. Yes, I'm insane and will prob. never afford that car... :evil2


BUT!
Best of all worlds, German + boost + big rubber = Yay.


In Your case....
I say LS/LT-X it and Give that some boost. :buttrock
or buy my black 993 TT and mod that hehe

^^^ what Mr. Blonde said.

also, please remember. from what i've learned/seen, if you aren't building the car yourself and you are not prone to working on high performance FI cars make sure you have double the money you are willing to spend in case $hit hits the fan.

i.e. you have a 30g budget?

take ~20g's and put it in the car
take the other ~10g's and put it in your pocket incase you throw a rod, burn a ring, blow a head gasket etc.

...especially if you are going to be in the 700hp+ category

I think budget is on target...
power is not out the world...
at the end 700whp will be more of getting the chassis to hold the torque and the application...(drag racing or just roll street races).

Also 700 will be just a number to drop panties, hooking & delivering 700whp to the ground will be the game the OP will play forever...

I don't want to speak ahead of time, but I think my TRM stg 2 w/a fresh S52 with internals will have the potential of 700whp on race gas...

Do I want 700whp? Nope... I rather have 550whp on pump and a car I that I enjoy and DD to work :buttrock

Personally I think Mike can do it with one hand...

Lol, now, I have absolutely no experience with car modding and this may be an ignorant statement, but it's just kind of a conclusion that I've come to reading this thread. A Bugatti Veyron has a 16 cylinder engine to put down 1001 hp. Kind of hard to imagine putting that much power...or even 700+ into a tiny little E36 M3. Good luck though!! Like I said, I may be wrong, but it seems like a valid point to me. :D

You sold a 470 RWHP Corvette ZO6 and bought an E36 M3 :confused

Hey Cam... when you state that he should show up to the shop with the built motor an all the tubo goodies. I am gathering you are expecting him to build the motor, correct? Unfortunately I would gather that most people on here cannot do such a thing, so obviously they / he would have to pay a shop to build the motor. Maybe I am wrong here, but I highly doubt a lot of people here, even some with the higher hp cars can rip apart their motor and put it together again perfectly by themselves.

Please correct me if I am wrong... yes I do know there are many highly trained and qualified individuals on this board who have done their own motors and own installs, but I just don't think the average person has the knowledge and tools at their disposal to do a build in their own garage...

If I were you, I'd buy an E46m3 and call HPF and get a stage 3 kit...
This would be the best way to go honestly. If you want to do the e36, then follow my instructions and go to techno550(TRM) for tuning. Otherwise, sell the car for an e46 m3 and go HPF Stage 2 all the way! Those turbo systems are done up as if they were produced by the BMW factory...except you get a pump map + meth and a race fuel map + meth. :devillook

Hey Cam... when you state that he should show up to the shop with the built motor an all the tubo goodies. I am gathering you are expecting him to build the motor, correct? Unfortunately I would gather that most people on here cannot do such a thing, so obviously they / he would have to pay a shop to build the motor. Maybe I am wrong here, but I highly doubt a lot of people here, even some with the higher hp cars can rip apart their motor and put it together again perfectly by themselves....
He can pay a machine shop to put it together and have the rotating assembly balanced I would believe. I just wouldn't want him to have a speed shop do it.

He can pay a machine shop to put it together and have the rotating assembly balanced I would believe. I just wouldn't want him to have a speed shop do it.

balancing the rotating assembly shouldn't be left to people who can say that they can do it, but insted to those who actually can. A race shop building the motor, as in a shop that acutally uses and supports the motors on a regular basis, is generally your best bet. when it comes to assembling the bottom end of of a motor that operates through its resonant frequency you can't use the balancing machine that most machine shops have. An M50 based motor isn't a short 4 cylinder or V8, its a rather long I6.

Having parts from a handfull of manufacturers dropped off at a machine shop for assembly to be taken to a shop to be put in a car with unknown other parts to then be tuned by another party seems like a lot of excess risk with no easy way to handle it.

if i just wanted something really fast i would probably sell this and get another z06 and do a TT setup. i really loved the z but theres just something about an e36 m that i am in love with. other than performance i prefer it over most cars, except for of course the exotics

balancing the rotating assembly shouldn't be left to people who can say that they can do it, but insted to those who actually can. A race shop building the motor, as in a shop that acutally uses and supports the motors on a regular basis, is generally your best bet. when it comes to assembling the bottom end of of a motor that operates through its resonant frequency you can't use the balancing machine that most machine shops have. An M50 based motor isn't a short 4 cylinder or V8, its a rather long I6.

Having parts from a handfull of manufacturers dropped off at a machine shop for assembly to be taken to a shop to be put in a car with unknown other parts to then be tuned by another party seems like a lot of excess risk with no easy way to handle it.
Then he should probably just purchase the pistons, rods, crank, studs, and m52. Drop all that off at the speed shop and let them do the rest. Atleast that way he knows what pistons, rods and crank will be in the motor and he won't be talked into something else with a high mark-up. That is all I am saying.

I don't want to speak ahead of time, but I think my TRM stg 2 w/a fresh S52 with internals will have the potential of 700whp on race gas...

I like the sound of this. More info on this please ... :D

RJ - you think that the TRM S2 turbo is capable of 700 rwhp? Techno550 - do you have anything to say about that?

700whp on pump gas will not happen.. at least not with your budget.

SPA 7000M supports 700hp.

700whp on pump gas will not happen.. at least not with your budget.
Meth is your friend.. but not your 700 whp on 93 octane friend.

if i just wanted something really fast i would probably sell this and get another z06 and do a TT setup. i really loved the z but theres just something about an e36 m that i am in love with. other than performance i prefer it over most cars, except for of course the exotics

I have to agree to that, I had Z owners tell me that they admire my car; they love that we little power the E36 can do so much. The same people that I have to explain how a 350whp 3.2L E36 is keeping up with their 6L+ V8 engine putting out over 450whp.... Hard to believe but just shows the potential on the E36.

Dont take me wrong, but If I had the money I would buy a blue C6 Zo6, as a Sunday drive car *only* not for pure adrenaline... E36 will always win on that pure adrenaline....

I like the sound of this. More info on this please ... :D

Nothing fancy like others, very down to earth built...:stickoutt

Low CR pistons
Eagle Rods
MLS
The right ARP studs ;)
TRM Stg. 2 Turbo kit
Better clutch than before, but under $550
Same God'old tunner
42lbs to start with
F/P regulator
255 Fuel Pump

I will be pushing the limits of the 3.5 euro HFM and later will be going to the porsche HFM. If I hit my goal (550whp 93oct 10%ethanol crap fuel) I'll stay there, If I need the porsche I'll get it.

I had hard issues trying to hook at 430wtq, I want to have power I can use, anything after that is a money pit.

RJ - you think that the TRM S2 turbo is capable of 700 rwhp? Techno550 - do you have anything to say about that?

I might be close if not out the turbo efficiency but I think It will be there. I don't want more than 650whp witch is just 50whp under the bar. If we hit 650whp I probably run the car detune... just for the fact that I don't want to invest 2K in the drivetrain mods....


700whp on pump gas will not happen.. at least not with your budget.

why not? I think the engine built will take 50% of the budget. and the other 50% just to make it happen....:devillook

I know I'm the last person to be talking, but do you really want a $30-40k E36? :shifty.

I realize your rwhp goal is more or less arbitrary (or perhaps for dick waving), but 600whp is far and away easier than 700whp.

Why? Injector limitations on the factory DME and HFM scaling.

If you are using a standalone, these are moot points. But the move from 600whp to 700 and beyond requires a rethink of your fueling, definition of 'streetable', and will have an uber short powerband.

poop.





<- Doubts this build will ever happen...

I might be close if not out the turbo efficiency but I think It will be there. I don't want more than 650whp witch is just 50whp under the bar. If we hit 650whp I probably run the car detune... just for the fact that I don't want to invest 2K in the drivetrain mods....

I don't think that SPA 7000m will make 700 rwhp. Given its a T3/T4 it'll fall off far too much on a 3.2L to be at 700 wheel horsepower. Jays car, if it had more fuel, would probably have landed in the 650 tq arena, but the fuel was maxed and the T3 .82 is just not flowing enough.

I don't think that SPA 7000m will make 700 rwhp. Given its a T3/T4 it'll fall off far too much on a 3.2L to be at 700 wheel horsepower. Jays car, if it had more fuel, would probably have landed in the 650 tq arena, but the fuel was maxed and the T3 .82 is just not flowing enough.

It's been a while but Bret's car was at 640-650whp at some point iirc, and "I think" he had a bit smaller turbine wheel.... dont quote me on this since it's been years since then

EDIT'd:

to the OP. with a 35K budget I will go motec and call it a day, tune by TRM

It's been a while but Bret's car was at 640-650whp at some point iirc, and I have I think it a bit smaller turbine wheel.... dont quote me on this since it's been years since then


640 - 650 is not 700+, that's what I am saying

640 - 650 is not 700+, that's what I am saying

No I know... 700 - 640 = 60

All I'm saying is that the 700 will be just a number, if you look at it from the other side.... 60whp is only 8.57% of the total desire power level... I think you can gain that 8.57% by just *maybe* cooling the IC or with some little external help... my .02

I've seen Evos hit 720whp and by freezing the IC they will hit 800ish... I just see it from how much power I can use.... not like a d!ck competition

OP...

moral of story is, it would be so much less painless if your number was 640-650whp rather than 700whp. As stated unless you go with 15" rims and M/T drag radials on the street or widebody, etc. then traction will be too much of an issue anyway. Please enjoy the wonderful world of stock DME tuning and set your goal to 600-640ish whp. :wave

I realize your rwhp goal is more or less arbitrary (or perhaps for dick waving)...
:rofl that made me lawl! :rofl

built engine + gt40R + Tec3R = 700+rwhp :dunno

or if you want to run the stock DME

built engine + gt40R + stg 3 TRM/NickG Tune (whichever u prefer) + ?meth? = 700+rwhp

obviously with all supporting fuel delivery

but then again this is going to run you 25+g's if its going to be done by a shop that is familiar with these cars and tuning for this amount of power. I'm not going to say numbers but I know of a car that was built at ICS recently by a man from alabama that made 740 at the wheels with I BELIEVE tec3r, meth, a gt40r, he spent close to double what you are talking about. The driver is a member of this board, maybe he could shed some light...

and just from experience, once you start screwing around with an engines compression and begin throwing in a redic amount of pressure (reguardless of build) you are sacrificing drivability, if you don't have paitence and some know-how in the area of engine mechanics and tuning forget your idea of a BMW FI 700hp DD... All you will have is headaches and bills bills bills. If your purpose of building this car is to be keeping up with your friends cars, then just go get another Z or a supra.. something along those lines. Just remember. the e36 is a timeless car that is an excellent performer in any aspect... the only thing is that when these cars were engineered, going fast in a straight line was not their top priority.

built engine + gt40R + Motec = 700+rwhp :dunno

FixeddddDDDDDD

FixeddddDDDDDD
He He I was trying to keep the kid from burning through the last of his settlement, but if he wants to make mega power, he can go Motec and purchase a carbon fiber copy of my widebody kit. Then he can fit M/T DR 325s. :)

If you decide to go with a stand alone system, which is the best option for something of this HP level since it might be impossible to find a MAF to support 700whp. I have a good deal on a Tec3r in perfect working order for sale. Only selling because I parted out the whole car.

Also 700 will be just a number to drop panties, hooking & delivering 700whp to the ground will be the game the OP will play forever...
best point made in this thread. if the OP wants to keep up with his friends and or pass them :devillook, then it would be best to do a setup that would be easier to get the power to the ground. it's kinda like that joke what do a 700whp supra and a 1000whp supra have in common...an 11 sec 1/4 mile! zinger!!!

anyway the OP should just keep in mind that even card counter doesn't roll around pushing his full 996whp all the time. if this is going to be on the street make sure you can use it.

my goal of 700 was actually over shooting a little bit i would be happy with 650 ish i was just setting my goals really high so if i fell short i would still have something that would put a smile on my face. i do want driveability and now i am seeing that lowering my goal a little will do alot more for me.

my goal of 700 was actually over shooting a little bit i would be happy with 650 ish i was just setting my goals really high so if i fell short i would still have something that would put a smile on my face. i do want driveability and now i am seeing that lowering my goal a little will do alot more for me.
YES! :redspot

Contact TRM!

/thread

Not that I don't want to see another turbo BMW, but it all seems a little presumptuous. In a year you want to have 700 rwhp+ at the beginning of the thread. Now you want "650ish". Not sure its really worth talking about this subject seriously any longer.

How about 600whp??

i wanted to know if i could safely put 700 to the wheels in my price range. i really do want around 700 to the wheels, although as alot of the members here said that 650 was alot easier and would be more reliable. that is the main reason i posted, i wanted to see exactly what i was getting into. i now know that with 650 it will be alot less hastle and still within around 60hp of my goal wich is not too bad.

i would go ahead with the build now but i really need to get my school in order first.

Not that I doubt the tuner you mentioned Cameron, but I don't know of any 700+ rwhp builds they've displayed
I dropped my car off at TRM yesterday.

This is true. If it ends up that he can't do it, then there will be other suggestions at that time. Hopefully by the time this guy is ready for tuning TRM will have successfully made 700whp on a car. (hint: Mike...get work done you need a 700whp dyno now!)

This is why I told you not to go with the s52 or you would be sorry. There isn't enough meat between cylinders and water jackets to hold the headgasket together.
I'm not sure that I agree. Although I never dyno'd at 700, the clutch that I had at the time wouldn't hold the power. I think that an S52 can handle 700 at the wheels, but we'll see.

TRM is replacing my HG with another .071" MLS, the new ARPs, and I'm going with a Southbend clutch and CM flywheel. I'm still just shooting for mid 500's on pump, but I think that I can hit 700's with the boost turned up. The goal is still just a fun daily driver though.

My questions had a purpose.

I don't know why we need dynos with a specific number to say its possible.
I've tuned 500+ rwhp "stock" M52's (just a MLS) on 93 octane and nothing else. I've tuned "stock" M50TU's with an MLS and studs to ~450 rwhp, also on just 93 octane. When you start wanting 700+, the easy way is to have a race gas tune to make 700+ and a pump gas tune to make more like 500-600. Not that 700+ wouldn't be possible on pump gas, but thats really pushing it.
Mike - if you'd like to tweak my tune and dyno it, you're welcome to do so. :stickoutt

I dropped my car off at TRM yesterday.

That's cool - our one car is at the dealer.




LOL hows this compare to the OP wanting 700 rwhp+

That's cool - our one car is at the dealer.




LOL hows this compare to the OP wanting 700 rwhp+
Once they're done, they can display a 700 RWHP car if they'd like. :D

Obviously it wouldn't be their build, but they can tune it if they'd like. My only dyno shows 616.

Once they're done, they can display a 700 RWHP car if they'd like. :D

Obviously it wouldn't be their build, but they can tune it if they'd like. My only dyno shows 616.

That's cool - think it'll hit 700? Is it still a pt67? Gonna need to be aggressive on that tune!

Good luck with it

I'm not sure that I agree. Although I never dyno'd at 700, the clutch that I had at the time wouldn't hold the power. I think that an S52 can handle 700 at the wheels, but we'll see.
I hope that you make 700whp and never blow an HG. You know that buddy! All I know is what I have been told by other guys with built s52s who have approached 650+whp and ran it on a regular basis. Lots of blown HGs.

That's cool - think it'll hit 700? Is it still a pt67? Gonna need to be aggressive on that tune!

Good luck with it
Yep, still a T67 with journal bearing, now with 20K miles on it. I'm OK if I never hit 700 RWHP, and honestly I'd prefer a conservative tune.

I hope that you make 700whp and never blow an HG. You know that buddy! All I know is what I have been told by other guys with built s52s who have approached 650+whp and ran it on a regular basis. Lots of blown HGs.
Nyeh, no big deal if I never hit it.

Wait... so what's this thread about?

I thought the OP wanted 700 rwhp. Now we've got all these references to less than 700 rwhp. Confused.

Wait... so what's this thread about?

I thought the OP wanted 700 rwhp. Now we've got all these references to less than 700 rwhp. Confused.
:dunno Info I gave him is still good except for tune and MAF if he wants 700whp+. Then there is the search button for the lovely standalone dead horse convo.

Wait... so what's this thread about?

I thought the OP wanted 700 rwhp. Now we've got all these references to less than 700 rwhp. Confused.


It's sad that you don't even realize that you're the one that started this thread going OT.

It's sad that you don't even realize that you're the one that started this thread going OT.

Haha its more sad you think that - go read ever post of mine in this thread - each and every post has "700 hp" in it. Multiple people kept coming up saying "well ____'s car is 550...so..." and I'd say "Right but thats not 700" and then the next would say "Yeah but if _____ can make 600 it should be good..." and I'd say "yeah but thats still not 700 like the OP wanted".

Good try though.

Haha its more sad you think that - go read ever post of mine in this thread - each and every post has "700 hp" in it. Multiple people kept coming up saying "well ____'s car is 550...so..." and I'd say "Right but thats not 700" and then the next would say "Yeah but if _____ can make 600 it should be good..." and I'd say "yeah but thats still not 700 like the OP wanted".

Good try though.

:lol

I kind of agree with mad but not 100%, an opinion was given by a member, you disagree and redirected the opinion to a tuner abilities to perform a task! Not saying that you cant or you shouldn't but you are always challenging the engineer and correcting the shoes maker, or telling the shoe maker how to make shoes "I hope you get the point"... Once again is not that you can't or you shouldn't, because in reality is a public forum base in a country with freedom of speech...

Maybe you are from a different era, maybe you could've been Adolf Hitler's best buddy, but thinking you always right, and challenging pros in multiple fields, it fields like you are here to rule and correct the people that makes a living of it....

My .02

Let me add an apology to the OP for steering this thread of topic, and if he ask I will delete my post

You sold a 470 RWHP Corvette ZO6 and bought an E36 M3 :confused
thats what im sayin'



I love (some of) the BMW motors, but like they say... There is NO replacement, like displacement.

IF you are dead set on making this a 3.2L car w/ ~700+whp..... Ever think of grabbing an S54, Build that HPF style.... yet retain the E36 shell?

As much as I like the little work horse, the S52 just ain't gonna be the best suited for the job. I personally would like knowing that when I get in the car after driving it hard, it still works.


S54(built) with HPF Kit + E36 = You Happy! (Now I want to do that....lol)

It would be SICK.

:lol

I kind of agree with mad but not 100%, an opinion was given by a member, you disagree and redirected the opinion to a tuner abilities to perform a task! Not saying that you cant or you shouldn't but you are always challenging the engineer and correcting the shoes maker, or telling the shoe maker how to make shoes "I hope you get the point"... Once again is not that you can't or you shouldn't, because in reality is a public forum base in a country with freedom of speech...

Maybe you are from a different era, maybe you could've been Adolf Hitler's best buddy, but thinking you always right, and challenging pros in multiple fields, it fields like you are here to rule and correct the people that makes a living of it....

My .02

Let me add an apology to the OP for steering this thread of topic, and if he ask I will delete my post

RJ quit while you're ahead. I didn't "challenge" anyone. I'll outline the thread for you:

OP - I have a lot of money I want 700+ rwhp
Everyone: Research
Cameron: Buy all the parts build a motor and give it to TRM
Me: Has TRM built a 700+ rwhp car yet?
Techno550: I could
Me: But have you
Everyone: Well TRM built ____'s car and that's 550 hp....600 hp... so yeah
Me: OK, but the OP wants 700+ rwhp.

How am I challenging anything - someone recommended a "solution" which might work fine, but in the past that has not been the route to take for a 700+ rwhp car. That is not to say it couldn't as I am sure it could. But when if I were to go look for a home builder who has built houses with geo thermal systems I want someone who has built a home with one - not someone who has built a home and the heater/ac worked good and the cost savings were almost what geo thermal systems provide and so geo thermal wouldn't be that much harder... the point is I want a geo thermal heating/cooling system lol. Not that someone who builds houses couldn't build one, but I don't want to be the guinea pig nor do I want to invest money in the builders finding out whats involved. This is only an example.

It's also annoying you're trying to make this into something its not. I didn't take the thread off topic at all - go look at every post of mine, I keep bringing people back on to the topic of 700 hp.

The long in short of it is the OP says he'll be doing it in what sounds like over a year... so this thread is kind of silly to begin with, but please do not just team up and tell me I am taking the thread off topic. Read my posts, evaluate them, and then tell me where I am doing so. Highlight where I am "challenging the engineer and correcting the shoes maker".

So back on to the topic of 700 rwhp. The only cars that come to my mind with that power are ones built by ICS. If anyone has any other examples of shop-built (because this OP isn't interested in doing it himself) cars making that power chime in. But the "Robert Robertstein made 500 hp so he could make 700+ if he wanted" is useless because the dude is looking for a solution, not an idea.

Additionally the OP went from "700+ rwhp" to "well 650 would be fine". Its obvious that its just a thread just flirting with the mere prospect of actually doing it. Honestly, the tuning aspect would be the least of my worries if I was starting at step 1 with an E36. Getting the right people to build the engine, the drivetrain, the plumbing and exhaust is far more crucial than the tune. The tune can be changed out however many times you want - the pistons and rods are in that metal box until they make their way out or you strip it down again.

RJ quit while you're ahead. I didn't "challenge" anyone. I'll outline the thread for you:

OP - I have a lot of money I want 700+ rwhp
Everyone: Research
Cameron: Buy all the parts build a motor and give it to TRM
Me: Has TRM built a 700+ rwhp car yet?
Techno550: I could
Me: But have you
Everyone: Well TRM built ____'s car and that's 550 hp....600 hp... so yeah
Me: OK, but the OP wants 700+ rwhp.

How am I challenging anything - someone recommended a "solution" which might work fine, but in the past that has not been the route to take for a 700+ rwhp car. That is not to say it couldn't as I am sure it could. But when if I were to go look for a home builder who has built houses with geo thermal systems I want someone who has built a home with one - not someone who has built a home and the heater/ac worked good and the cost savings were almost what geo thermal systems provide and so geo thermal wouldn't be that much harder... the point is I want a geo thermal heating/cooling system lol. Not that someone who builds houses couldn't build one, but I don't want to be the guinea pig nor do I want to invest money in the builders finding out whats involved. This is only an example.

It's also annoying you're trying to make this into something its not. I didn't take the thread off topic at all - go look at every post of mine, I keep bringing people back on to the topic of 700 hp.

The long in short of it is the OP says he'll be doing it in what sounds like over a year... so this thread is kind of silly to begin with, but please do not just team up and tell me I am taking the thread off topic. Read my posts, evaluate them, and then tell me where I am doing so. Highlight where I am "challenging the engineer and correcting the shoes maker".

So back on to the topic of 700 rwhp. The only cars that come to my mind with that power are ones built by ICS. If anyone has any other examples of shop-built (because this OP isn't interested in doing it himself) cars making that power chime in. But the "Robert Robertstein made 500 hp so he could make 700+ if he wanted" is useless because the dude is looking for a solution, not an idea.

Additionally the OP went from "700+ rwhp" to "well 650 would be fine". Its obvious that its just a thread just flirting with the mere prospect of actually doing it. Honestly, the tuning aspect would be the least of my worries if I was starting at step 1 with an E36. Getting the right people to build the engine, the drivetrain, the plumbing and exhaust is far more crucial than the tune. The tune can be changed out however many times you want - the pistons and rods are in that metal box until they make their way out or you strip it down again.

the challenge thing is a general thing you do.

Let me put it in other words... maybe you will understand it. He had a goal of 700, and he mention:

"i really want to do it but i need something i can actually drive without breaking down"

That shows us that he is willing to compromise, therefore he has and open mind (not like others). then he reviews people's opinions and concludes that 600ish it might work better for his final goals.... Then you disagree and can not respect his new route... then you turn your back and said not worth my time.... that show how little respect have for some else's ideas, if they are not the way you want then they are not worth your time.... just sad attitude coming from you....:(

I guess you are a natural ruler! Nothing wrong with it but I know I would enjoy this forum a bit more if you were a bit more open mind towards others....

If you apply what I said in general to this thread it would be something like this:

Jon he realized that 700whp is not an easy route, he realized that delivering 700 to the ground is some type of drag car.. and he wants something that does not brakes all the time (just like drag cars do). he even said he over shoot his power goal and he will be ok with 600ish.... respect his decision after all is his car and not yours... maybe he want to built the car in little down time and not take years upon years to get 700whp and brake it in a afternoon :dunno:

+1 to Cam's sig!

I love BFC.FI

:icon15

:lol oh good 'ole bfcfi never fails.

The thread was pretty much over with this post.
:dunno Info I gave him is still good except for tune and MAF if he wants 700whp+. Then there is the search button for the lovely standalone dead horse convo.
He has all the right information. Let him take the car to TRM which is the best solution up to 600ish or wherever their limit is. If he feels he needs more than that down the road, then he can cross the standalone bridge at that time. There is plenty of bloody standalone horse carcases on bfcfi using the search button. :)

Don't make this an anti TRM thread. Stock OBDI computer is the way to go for multiple tunes if you can deal with under 650whp. That is a objective opinion.

Definitely not Anti anyone Cam - I even said I don't doubt they could do it. My point was just that the OPs requirements shifted merely because of what people said. If he wants a daily that doesn't break I think even 500 hp is too much. Unless he doesn't plan on actually driving it hard.

Definitely not Anti anyone Cam - I even said I don't doubt they could do it. My point was just that the OPs requirements shifted merely because of what people said. If he wants a daily that doesn't break I think even 500 hp is too much. Unless he doesn't plan on actually driving it hard.
QFT. Yeah, reliability and 600ish whp is hard to come by...but the stock DME tuning would probably get him the closest of any to the reliable car he wants.

t

That shows us that he is willing to compromise, therefore he has and open mind (not like others). then he reviews people's opinions and concludes that 600ish it might work better for his final goals.... Then you disagree and can not respect his new route... :

+1 forum threads are not always about staying on topic, but actually helping members out.
700whp on 'PUMP GAS' means that it could be tune to close to 1000hp on race gas. OP's on the right track with his new decision.

lol sorry about getting everyone in such an uproar. and yes this thread was a type of feeler to see if i should stick with my decision to keep the s52 and turbo it for my goals, but i was deff. willing to compromise after i read some of the advice people were giving me.

i do not plan on abusing this car, and will be driven very very carefully except for an ocasional spirited drive. actually i would try to stay out of boost as much as i can except for those occasions where i feel frisky. it wont see alot of track time but i might take it to the strip every couple months, as it is quite a drive and i have a busy schedule.

thanks for all the help, this really helped me make the decision of the direction i wanted to go with this car.

:comp:

:eatpop:

Glad you are going big to start with! Smart man.

Please sell the s52. At that power you will be blowing headgaskets left and right unless you do pyramid rings.

Do this:
-purchase m52 for cheap.
-135mm forged rods.
-s52 crank.
-8.5:1CR Wiseco or CP pistons at 85mm bore.
-s52 cams.
-O-ring block.
-MLS .070 HG.
-TRM ARP 2000 nonundercut 10mm studs.
You will have 3.05 liters displacement and your engine will be able to handle probably 1000whp.


+100000000

Have this guy tune it. Make sure you stay bottom mount. Top mount is a pain in the ass and then you can easily locate an 803 MAF for this guy's tune! :buttrock

Ill second this.

:comp:
:buttrock

lol sorry about getting everyone in such an uproar. and yes this thread was a type of feeler to see if i should stick with my decision to keep the s52 and turbo it for my goals, but i was deff. willing to compromise after i read some of the advice people were giving me.

i do not plan on abusing this car, and will be driven very very carefully except for an ocasional spirited drive. actually i would try to stay out of boost as much as i can except for those occasions where i feel frisky. it wont see alot of track time but i might take it to the strip every couple months, as it is quite a drive and i have a busy schedule.

thanks for all the help, this really helped me make the decision of the direction i wanted to go with this car.

what direction would that be? :D

.... you remind me of myself. I had big dreams of owning a 700+hp M3 when I was maybe about 15-16 yrs old (after seeing cam's) and untill I got my first N/A m3 @18 and realized how much $$$ you need to make power on these cars. :eyecrazy

the bad...
I was about to throw a stg II vortech on the car untill I got T-boned by a 72 year old woman who couldn't speak english. I got a settlement (like yourself) and went out and bought a built t60-1 turbo m3. After 4 months and putting in over $10g's in work I still can't drive the thing as a DD. Its constantly in and out of the shop for F/I issues and I'm stuck borrowing my moms car/bumming rides from my friends. Typically I do all maintenence/work on all of my familys cars. my old m3, my moms 95 e320, 84 mb turbo diesel beater etc. I however refuse to attack any serious F/I issues with the car since tinkering with them could be very costly in the end. F/I bimmers are like really really hot connecticut girls, they are very sensitive, sexy as hell, great for a ride, but a damper on your wallet and you always catch them spending time at others garages and not your own.

the good...
440rwhp ;). when these cars run good, nothing will put a bigger smile on your face and others when you pass by them. the amount of attention you will recieve is incredible. sometimes it can even get on your nerves i.e. fanboys asking you "how fast does it go" :confused. You will also be able to blow the doors off of other cars that have even supercar status. You will be able to take your car to the track, strip, auto-x, drift, whatever motorsport your heart so desires.

my final suggestion to you..
take that m3 and aim at a hp range that is a little more attainable with your budget and the DD status you are looking for. ~500hp should be more than enough. With this you will still be able to run w. your friends, run the stock DME (reliable), take it to the strip and do other fun things. You will find that if you are running street tires on these cars ~(230-250), getting the power to the ground is a fight between throttle control and making sure you actually stay in a straight line. You say you would be staying out of boost anyways so why not start a little smaller and work your way up. You could always add on a bigger turbo, meth, more aggressive tune, etc...

F/I bimmers are like really really hot connecticut girls, they are very sensitive, sexy as hell, great for a ride, but a damper on your wallet and you always catch them spending time at others garages and not your own.

Hahahaha, you speak the truth my friend. Oh, and because you're in Trumbull, that means you automatically owe me a ride...right?

Alpmaster - your sig violates the sig rules...
and aside from that is really annoying... but at least resize it plz!

Who cares.

Just trying to keep him from getting it disabled - i mean it takes up most of a 22" widescreen lol

Alpmaster - your sig violates the sig rules...
and aside from that is really annoying... but at least resize it plz!

HAHA:lol

(hint: Mike...get work done you need a 700whp dyno now!)


I'm not sure if my car will crack 700 WHP with it's configuration now.. Maybe with some Cams and C16 It should be able to do it..
I just have to get my spare motor together before we start Really pushing this current engine.... I just need a few more key parts and my new engine will be complete :D

When you start wanting 700+, the easy way is to have a race gas tune to make 700+ and a pump gas tune to make more like 500-600. Not that 700+ wouldn't be possible on pump gas, but thats really pushing it.

+1

SPA 7000M supports 700hp.

Spa said the 7000m should support 700... Now the 7000MR is good for 880hp :)