Hello, all. Great forums, with lots of terrific information. I've been doing a lot of searching and reading. Have a couple of questions for the guys with track toys:

Some background first. My current weekend/track toy is a '94 Miata. Tein Flex suspension, sways, rollbar, supercharged/intercooled, RA-1 rubber, etc. Makes about 175-180 hp at the crank, and is quite a hoot for weekend track days. I can beat the pi$$ out of it at track and drive it home at the end of the day. However, it can be easily turned into a daily driver by softening the suspension and swapping to street wheels and tires.

But...I've always loved the 2002s, and am thinking hard about creating a BMW version of my Miata, i.e., weekend fun car that is at home at the track.

1. For those with track-oriented BMWs, how reliable are they as track toys?

2. I'd prefer to stay all-motor, and am hoping for roughly the same HP as my Miata. Can this be achieved with the stock/rebuilt 2002 motor, or am I looking at a swap to a newer BMW 4-banger?

3. Possible to get dry weight down to 2000 lbs, provided I ditch things like radio, back seat, and other non-essential items?

4. Provided I start with a clean, rust-free runner, and do a tear-down and build-up, is $10,000 a workable budget?

5. Any model years to shoot for, or to avoid? Personal preference is the round tail light models.

I've seen lots of gorgeous drivers in this forum as well as several all-out racer cars (not street-legal), but I'm looking for something in between. Any suggestions/advice would be appreciated.

Edit: Just saw "Moe's" green 02 in another thread. That's kinda what I'm looking at...

#1 - there is no such thing as a rust free 2002. Haven't seen one yet. Search carefully, rust can hide very well....ask me how I know.

#2- A m10 making that level of power is kinda stessed an will not be as reliable as a miata. The best option in your case is a s14 swap.

#3- $10000? not going to happen. Just a used S14 will cost you around 3-4k. Then you need to get coilovers, brakes, bushings, camber plates, adjustable rear camber kit, LS diff (or go cheap and weld it locked)....seats, belts, fire system, wheels etc....etc... not to mention roll bar/rollcage.

that said...

I did everything myself and got a deal on the original car that came with many parts already and I'm in somewhere around $10k.

#4 - 2000lbs by removing interior? not going to happen.....but you can get close to that in a dusl purpose car. My race class weight limit is 2000lbs. To get below 2k lbs. you need to do alot.....


last thing is you asked about reliability......with the m10? not bad......a high HP M10 is more likely to need attention. A stock S14 should provide enough power and should be pretty reliable.

Just keep the #1 golden rule about "projects". They usually will take twice the amount of money, work and time than you thought they would.....

Again all that said, I don't regret a second spent on my car. It has been a long hard road but extremely rewarding and fun. Not to mention I learned so much!!!

GOOD LUCK !!!!

Visit my site, there is lots of good info on there...... www.bmw1602.com

1. he is right, rust free 02's are almost unheard of, and bloody expensive.
2. yeah, an s14 swap is good, but, i think an m10 build would be cheaper, and more reliable, while still be able to make 170hp
3. 2000lbs is very workable. a stock '71 02, straight of the ass. line, was 2021lbs. just removing the interior will get you to at least 1950. im not sure about weight from other years.
4. price all depends on what you do. if you do an s14 swap look at 15k+ for the swap and everything else you need to handle the power (tranny, driveshaft, diff, wheels, tires, brakes, an some other stuff)
i think a high HP m10 is about the same reliablility as an s14. in my experience both need a lot of attention and need to be well tuned and kept in everyway. in the end its all about how much actual money you want to spend, s14's are expensive and not that easy to come by, M10's are cheap comparitively and will yield the same HP as a stock s14
5. its mostly about preference (roundies are <73 FYI) and usually your state smog laws. here in cali i went for on with no smog laws so that no matter what i do to the engine, it'll still be street legal, providing its still relatively quiet.

and this is very very true, "Just keep the #1 golden rule about "projects". They usually will take twice the amount of money, work and time than you thought they would....."(BMW1602)

good luck and welcome to german engineering!

everything that was said is a good path to follow/look at. Another consideration is going FI. I am converting to fuel injection and turbo. I just dropped my head off to get machined and rebuilt (I provided all the parts). The total cost for the head parts is roughly 1200 and the labor to build and machine will be around 450 (I assume/hope), Then comes the block which will run around the same price, turbo $500, EMS $800, exhaust, intercooler and plumbing, BOV and wastegate, fuel parts (lines, pump, fuel cell), and all the other parts associated. THey add up to a little less than a S14 swap but wil yeild much more hp.

THen comes the suspension and brakes, lsd, 5 sped swap, wheels and tires, paint and body work...

I initially set my budget to ~8K...before I actually buying and really planning my project. As I have progressed thru the planning, my budget has grown drastically. Minus what I have spent on the turbo, EMS, and all the head parts ($2300-2500), I still have about 10,500 left of my budget. That is me doing everything that I can to save money.

I am really taking my time, well my wife is really keeping the checkbook out of my hands, which has helped me a lot because it has probably saved me a lot of money.

I bought a great example of a midwest 2002 for $2700 in 2005 from the original owner who kept every document related to service, including the window sticker, drove it for maybe 400 miles and parked it. It sat for 2 years before I decided to pull the motor for a rebuild (valve seals were shot and rings on #3 were bad). That is when I decided to go turbo and have been planning/researching ever since. The body is a 15 footer with just the chrome strips showing wear/damage. The passanger floor has rot, driver side strut tower has surface rust, and the rear pass between the fender and trunkpan nas some rust. All will be addressed when the motor is finished.

hope that gives some insight to your project quest.

2. yeah, an s14 swap is good, but, i think an m10 build would be cheaper, and more reliable, while still be able to make 170hp
4. i think a high HP m10 is about the same reliablility as an s14.


Not sure where you got your weight figures but I can assure you that they are wrong. try more like: 1088 kg (2398 lbs) and Higher some models even as high as 2400lbs. Depends on alot of factors. The later models even used double pane sheet metal in the front half to act as a "crumple zone" and weight increased further. Earlier 1600's like mine had no sun roof and thinner sheet metal and COULD be up to 100lbs lighter than later models. It's part of the reason I decided to stick with my shell.

I have seen a few race cars with no carpet but most of the interior in place plus a roll cage still be around 2100 lbs. Maybe others could chime in here....

but AFAIK

Saloon = 990kg (Euro) 1088kg (US) (and higher in later years)
Cabrio & Targa = 1040kg
Touring = 1030kg
Turbo = 1080kg
Add 20kg for auto trans models.

\as far as the motor....

First off a m10 making 170 crank hp will maybe put out 140rwhp. A completely stock s14 will put out 170+ rwhp.

I can guarantee you that a m10 putting out 170 rwhp is nowhere close to as reliable as a stock s14. For one you will absolutely need to run race gas to deal with a higher compression m10, the big cam, rockers will break......etc....to make big HP on a N/A m10 you need a big cam, big carbs and most of all LOTS of revs. Think 8-9000rpms. I know a racer pushing number close to 200hp on his m10 and he drilled holes in his firewall so that he could push the rocker shafts out to replace broken rockers without removing the head. he said there was race days he would break a few rockers....9000rpms is not easy on any motor....to make power in the m10 you must rev. The 2-valve head is the bottleneck you just can't get enough air/fuel thru the head fast enough. Which is why Schnitzer and BMW (formula 2 m10 motors) ditched the stock head and each came out with thier own 16v heads for racing and hp number approaching 400! Funny enough it is exactly how the S14 was created. they took a m10 block and put a amazing 16v head on it using all the expirience gained from Formula 2 and Schnitzer cars...

the m10block can take 1500hp it's the head and the oiling system that is a problem on higher hp stressed out m10's. The head mainly is the weakpoint....both in flow, shape and issues like the rockers......

A stock s14 will put out 170rwp all day long. My s14 (in my old e30m3) went 60,000 miles of track, auto-x and hard charging driving with NO issues. Nothign but oil.......I bought the car with 110,000 on the odo. I drove the hell out of that motor and had no issues. My s14 had a TMS chip and a Supersprint exhaust and put out 184rwhp. Trouble free.

The m10 is cheap to rebuild (if you do the work yourself) the s14 is expensive to rebuild. The m10 at high hp levels will require way more attention than a stock s14. So in the long run a s14 might be cheaper.

woops. i think your right, i miss read my book :P we do these things...

i understand about rwhp and all, and the s14 maybe being better in the long run, but my experience with s14's has just not been good. also, carbs aren't the only fuel system for a 02. you could go ITB's or megasquirt with a 318 rail. lots of options. and they may even yeild more HP than mega carbs and a big cam. but i have no experience with them, so i wouldn't know...

okay, whats an s14?

okay, whats an s14?

An S14 is a motor from a E30 M3.
(Borat Voice) Very Nice!

the S14 took the past 20 years of bmw 4banger racing heratige and put it into one streetable engine, basically.

thanks for the clue 328iphone, I have heard of an m3, thats big, I didn't know that engine would fit in a 2002. bob

http://i20.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/f2/4b/b498_1.JPG


S14 fits in 2002 easy. People have swapped 6 cylinders as well



http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/102/102623/pages/234004/enginein.jpg

M50 in an 02



http://images.eurotuner.com/featuredvehicles/eurp_0709_03_z+1969_bmw_2002+engine.jpg

M20 stroker in 02

dude the last one has a serious strut bar set up! awsome!!!

Moe here, Thanks......

It's going to be tough to compare reliablilty with these 2 cars. Miatas are pretty much bulletproof, in any build. It's great when you can show up to a track towing your r-comps on a trailer w/ A/C and radio, beat the living piss out of it all day, change your tires back, hit dinner at a nice place, and drive back home......headache free. Not sure an 02 will top that, but.....

1. I've been pretty lucky with reliablity. These cars are old, so it really depends on how thorough you are about nut and bolting a car before track days. I'm sure you do that with your Miata already, so you should be fine with possibly a little more maintanance.

2. Pedro hit it right on the head. You will have to shy away from stock. Hp will have to be achevied with FI if you still want realiablitly and simplicity. A bored 2.0L or stroker, cam and head work, CIS injection or MS, and good exshaust will acheive 170hp like Pedro. Too get the over 200, and stay reliable would be tough. S14 would be the way to go there, but maintanance if something happens will cost you, I said "if". I just met a guy with nearly 200,000 miles on his E30 M3, and he tracks it. Bearing maintance and oil is key.

3. Weight will be tough to get below 2000lbs. Not sure what Pedro numbers are, but they should be close to 2000+lbs. I run between 2100/2200lbs depending on gas. Last corner balance, I was at 2138 with a guess of half a tank.....gauge don't work. My VIN tag says Zul.Ges.Gew.kg 1340.....what ever that means.

4. Your budget will solely depend on your base, but I will agree with everybody here. Double it, even if you do the work yourself. I spent nearly 7,000 in just the swap, and that was doing all the work myself in my garage.

5. If your looking for a light car. The earlier the better, but I think that years are a personal preference. Just find a soild chassis to save some time and money.

Best of luck, hope that something comes your way. Just have fun with what ever you decide on.

Thanks again for your kind words and your interest.

Cheers

MOE

Skip is getting his M44 kit worked out. Not as much horsepower as your talking about, but reliable.
I have a track/auto-x miata as well, and they are pretty hard to beat. I just replaced the first wheel bearing at 93k miles.

My VIN tag says Zul.Ges.Gew.kg 1340.....what ever that means.


Best stab:
ZULaessiges GESamt GEWicht

Rough translation: Allowable total weight...


All, lots of great info already. Thanks so much for your valuable input so far. Still formulating my thoughts/options/budget, etc... Will probably have more questions soon.

This would be sooo much easier if I didn't have my Miata as a point of reference. I've been spoiled.

i know this is for a 68, but the 71 *my car* was the same weight. 2072lbs. 940kg.
link to the info (btw this is a great info site...) http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=119416