Has anyone thought about other fuels we could run? I know there is natural gas to be had on the cheap now a days like 2.60$ per gallon thing is you have to have high compression pistons , and a conversion but alot of power can be had as a result....http://www.myphill.com/index.htm
Mycngkit.com
theres some stuff on you tube also

170-200 (Higher the proof lesser the water content) proof alchol could be an alternative as it was used as a fuel to power the first combustion engine cars because petrol wasen't invented then. Alchol was also used as an alternative during 2nd world war due to rationing of petrol, and then quickly evaporated after the war due to big oil monopolizing the market.

Me myself have never used or produced alchol to power any of my cars but i have given it a little thought because of the very high price of fuel here in the UK.

Weather Alchol is a relieble and healthy choice for our eights, or for any car for that matter, I don't know, maybe someone else can chime in here...

What we commonly know as alcohol, is actually ethanol. In chemical terms, alcohols are a group of compounds of which ethanol is only one.

Petrol engines can run on an ethanol mix, but not without some modifications. You'll often hear the terms "E10" or "E85" in relation to fuel -- these are simply a petrol/ethanol blend, with the former being 10% ethanol and the latter 85% ethanol.

It's a very common fuel in Brazil due to the huge amount of sugar cane they grow there, which is used to create the ethanol. I believe it's available in some parts of the US (I hired a car there last summer that had an E85 badge on the back) but I'm not aware of it being available anywhere in the UK. Likewise with mainland Europe, never heard of it being available.

To be honest I doubt there's much saving in price, if any. The main claim to fame is the environmental benefit -- as a biofuel, it's considered (almost) carbon neutral.

Has anyone thought about other fuels we could run? I know there is natural gas to be had on the cheap now a days like 2.60$ per gallon thing is you have to have high compression pistons , and a conversion but alot of power can be had as a result...
Mycngkit.com
theres some stuff on you tube also

The main issue with natural gas (methane) is that the critical temperature of it is quite low, so you can't liquify it without keeping it very cold. You can compress it, but it remains a gas (hence the term CNG = compressed natural gas). As a result it has a poor energy density, meaning for a set size of tank, you get a very poor range -- on an 8-series you'd be lucky to get 100 miles!

An alternative, common in parts of Europe and Australia, is propane. It's a longer chain molecule than methane, and although it has a lower octane rating (still a lot higher than petrol, around 110 RON) it can be liquified at room temperature with a pressure of around 5 bar -- commonly known as LPG (liquified petroleum gas). So with a suitable tank, the energy density is only around 20% less than that of petrol.

You can run your engine on this with very little modification. Ideally the compression ratio could be raised and the ignition advanced due to the higher octane, but very few people bother. The main reason is that by keeping the engine suited to petrol, you can retain the petrol system and instantly switch back to petrol, if you run out of propane for example.

The main advantage is that it naturally evaporates at room temperature, so you get a much better air-fuel mixture (particularly from cold when petrol has to be richened to combat the condensation effect) and it's also a very clean burn, producing very little emissions other than carbon dioxide and water vapour. It also eliminates the bore wash effect that occurs with petrol, so less oil contamination occurs.

Disadvantage is that it burns hotter, so the valves and valve seats have to be strong enough to handle the extra heat. I believe all BMW engines can easily meet this requirement, whereas some poorly engineered engines (Ford Zetec is a well known one) suffer valve seat recession after around 10-20,000 miles if converted to propane.

The whole reason behind natural gas is the price , and its abundance to think propane would be a good idea kind of defeats the purpose have you seen the price of propane? almost what a gallon of gas is . Like i stated before the price of natural gas is around 2.60 a gallon here in CA also there are kits to fill up at home.Using the same gas that powers your stove beat that!
http://www.mycngkit.com/Gallery_OF_Ford_CNG,_Chevy_CNG,_GM_CNG,_Nissan_CNG ,_Toyota_CNG_Conversion_Kits_Bi-Fuel.html

I thinking about trying to do an LPG conversion, What does the retrofit need exactly?

But i beleave the LPG has less out put comparred to the CNG cause 1 is not compressed and the other is you get more gas in the same tank.

The whole reason behind natural gas is the price , and its abundance to think propane would be a good idea kind of defeats the purpose have you seen the price of propane? almost what a gallon of gas is . Like i stated before the price of natural gas is around 2.60 a gallon here in CA also there are kits to fill up at home.Using the same gas that powers your stove beat that!


Which is all well and good if you never travel more than 50 miles from home -- like I said, you'll be lucky to get a 100 mile range on an 8-series running on CNG. Add to that the long refuelling time (the gas has to be compressed as it's being filled into the tank) and it's not something I consider an attractive proposition no matter how cheap.

That's the reason CNG is seldom used in passenger cars, whereas propane use is very widespread in some parts of the world. CNG on the other hand works fine on some types of commercial vehicles where you can fit large enough tanks to overcome the poor energy density.

I thinking about trying to do an LPG conversion, What does the retrofit need exactly?

Tank, injectors, vapouriser (converts the liquid back to gas), all the plumbing in between these parts, and the electrical control system that shuts off the petrol injectors and instead runs the gas injectors.

It's quite widely available here in the UK. For an 8-cylinder kit, you're looking at £800-1000. For a fully installed system, you're looking at around £1500-2000.

But i beleave the LPG has less out put comparred to the CNG cause 1 is not compressed and the other is you get more gas in the same tank.

CNG is compressed, which makes is slightly more dense than natural gas. LPG is liquified, which makes is much, much more dense than the gaseous form. Hence why you get around 80% of the range of petrol, litre for litre, running on LPG. Compared to around 25% for CNG!

CNG has a higher octane than LPG, which in turn has a higher octane than petrol. But that has nothing to do with energy density or indeed power output -- it's purely a measure of knock resistance. You can use it to get more power by having a higher compression ratio and more advanced ignition, but the former requires a specially designed engine that will no longer run on petrol, hence it's pretty rare.

good stuff, Paul. You really know your stuff :), thanks for a good read.

Cheers,
Thomas

i see i see thanks for the correction i was thinking low pressure gas, not liquidfied

Basic facts : look under basic facts about lpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_natural_gas

ok ok last post check out this you tube vid on CNG
at 6:50 is what im talking about
http://ecumaster.blogspot.com/2006/12/audiworld-direct-injection-petrol.html

I have a Euro 3.2 E36 M3 that's been running on LPG for 500km now. I am immensely pleased with the decision, and know a few other who are as well (with e.g. E46 M3s and E39 M5s).

It's the 4th car I convert and this is by far the best result - same performance, less than half the running cost (12€ per 100 kms), no loss of trunk space (tank replaced the spare tire).

I definitely advise it to anyone who's sick of enriching those highway robbers in the oil industry.

good stuff, Paul. You really know your stuff, thanks for a good read.

Cheers,
Thomas

You're welcome.

ok ok last post check out this you tube vid on CNG
at 6:50 is what im talking about
http://ecumaster.blogspot.com/2006/12/audiworld-direct-injection-petrol.html


It's an interesting video. I think it reinforces the points I made earlier, in that the low range makes it unsuitable for the E31. The specially designed Honda Civic they use gets a range of 220 miles, so I think the E31 would struggle to reach 100 miles per tank on natural gas.

Add to that it takes 2 hours per gallon to fill from your home supply (due to it having to be compressed during filling) and I don't think it's realistic for large sporty cars without some method of being able to store much larger quantities of gas.

Great idea for small, efficient cars though, if you're happy to drive those types of cars. If I had to commute in the city every day I'd probably consider one as a second car -- the E31 is wasted doing trips like that.